Confused About Military

[Edvard]

Hi. About a couple of weeks ago I had a discussion with Actualized.org (would guess it was Leo) on YouTube in the comment section under his video about loneliness, wondering whether going for a military engineering education, which I consider, maybe isn't the right way to go after all because of the lack of solitude and space I may need for developing my inside, and self-actualize. His answer suggested many other things to be concerned about when joining the military and essentially said I shouldn't do it, and I was slightly surprised and got confused about his answers. Can any of you here on the forum go a little deeper on this? I partly get it, and think I understand some of his principles as a matter of experience and consciousness; that it's, as we say "only you", or "only your consciousness", and good and evil doesn't really exist, but is a product of our minds manipulating reality, and what we call evil is just a matter of what our minds dislike. I'm starting to somewhat understand that. What I don't understand is the notion that there is no such thing as good or bad. Can't we define that? Isn't it bad when I'm unhappy, and good if I'm happy? If not, why take any self help course? Isn't physical pain bad, or are you saying that you can be happy having immense physical pain?

What I also don't get is that by saying we don't need military (which he essentially does when trying to speak me away from joining it), isn't he then automatically accepting that I am guaranteed to get killed? Isn't he essentially saying: "I accept that ISIS will come into my house in one minute and chop my head off while meditating, still happy"? If that's OK, and you can be happy no matter what, why do you eat, and why do you even live? Why shouldn't we prevent ISIS from doing this, and I hope you agree that the only way to prevent them is indeed by violence..

 

Anyway, this is how the youtube discussion went:

My starting comment: So going for a military carrier, firstly an education of 3 years, living on a 6 manned room, like I'm considering, is not a good idea if you need all this "space" to do self-actualizing?

Actualized.org: You've got a bigger issue there than lack of solitude. You're making your career about killing other human beings. That's a huge problem from a self-actualization perspective. One of the folds of Buddha's eight-fold path is: Right Career: which means no killing of humans or animals

Youtuber1: Actualized.org I disagree...if enemies take control of the situation, no matter what I will have to kill the enemy for my camps survival. Yes I understand the concept of The Dark Knight but it's foolish at certain situations. If you have read bhagavad geeta pls check out. Would you not kill a powerful psychopath responsible for killing children who did nothing to him? Off course there's nothing we can do about him but kill. Mental rehab for that guy will be foolish and what about the parents, is it the way of life? Yes decisions are tough to make but where did all the sanity go?

Youtuber2: I admire you and your work. Just to play devils advocate though, are you not moralizing in saying a career in military is wrong? weren't we supposed to not moralize?

Me: Thanks for the answer, although I was slightly surprised about your content moralization of being in the military, in addition to that I didn't know Buddhism had any relevance in itself here. I was thinking like there are lots of cons and pros. I mean, if some of your values are bravery/courage, I feel like I at least in some way would feel fulfilled when pushing myself, and that living a more comforting civilian life, not pushing myself or making tough decisions in the same way would make me feel more cowardly, as if something's lacking. I would also add, that it's called The Defence, and western countries are bounded by law to only kill if someone tries to kill us. The education I was talking about would give me a bachelor engineering degree in telematics along with lots leadership experience. I wonder, would you let someone kill you, if you knew the only way not to get killed was to kill the attacker, or maybe your point is not about whether or not being in the military is wrong, but rather that it would not give me "peace of mind", or something like that? On the other hand, I do in some way see your point, that maybe it wouldn't be too authentic to base a career on training for killing other humans

 Actualized.org: There's nothing wrong with killing human beings. There's nothing wrong with any action. You are free to kill and rape babies. It's just anti-spiritual. Meaning, you will regret it later. The problem with being in the military is that you're working not merely in self-defense, but in active provocation of violence, greed, oppression, fear, power, and corruption. You are literally making yourself the unconscious tool of the devil. Because you are committing yourself to follow orders unconsciously, without question. Nothing ultimately wrong with that. But it is not aligned with spiritual growth or consciousness, and you will never be happy doing that. When you are conscious and in the Truth, it makes no sense to do violence to others. When the USA military started testing LSD on their soldiers to make them tougher, they had to abandon the project because the LSD made them so conscious and so loving, they refused to kill human beings. They wanted to hug them instead. You can't be Jesus and be in the military. It doesn't make sense. At that point, you would rather die than be a tool of egoic unconsciousness. I know a highly enlightened American yogi who moved out of the USA because he does not want to even live in a country that has an active military. Bad karma. So he lives in a country with zero military. You gotta really appreciate how karma works.

Me: Ok, I see. Any response to this, though? “For pacifism seems to me to be a deeply immoral position that comes to us swaddled in the dogma of highest moralism - but most of us are not pacifists.  . . . Pacifism is ultimately nothing more than a willingness to die, and let others die, at the pleasure of the world’s thugs.  It should be enough to note that a single sociopath, armed with nothing more than a knife, could exterminate a city full of pacifists.  There is no doubt that such sociopaths exist, and they are generally better armed.”  -  Sam Harris

Youtuber1: Love Sam Harris

End of conversation

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Edvard

[Edvard]

Need to add another note here: Someone like ISIS would rule the world if we had no military. In which case I would be tortured to death. Is that neither good nor bad? If I say: "we shouldn't have military", don't I then accept this to happen? Again, why would I be more unhappy preventing this, than being tortured to death?

[Prabhaker]

3 minutes ago, Edvard said:

Someone like ISIS would rule the world if we had no military.

Military and ISIS both exist because humanity is not enough intelligent. Why ISIS was created in the first place ? Why more civilized countries sell arms to less civilized countries?

The whole process of the army is to destroy intelligence because an intelligent person will not be able to kill without any reason. 

[Edvard]

2 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

The whole process of the army is to destroy intelligence because an intelligent person will not be able to kill without any reason. 

What do you mean without reason? Everyone has their reason for killing somebody. So if the army kills ISIS, it destroys intelligence? 

Don't you think islamic fundamentalist groups willing to spread islam all over the world would exist if western military didn't exist? Do you think ISIS will let go of those plans if we just put down our military? These people are willing to blow themselves up because they believe in martyrdom, because they are religious fundamentalists. Can you answer this: would you vote for or against completely getting rid of your country's military tomorrow, and if yes, what consequenses do you think that will have? Won't any ideology take over your country, and suppress and torture anyone who doesn't obey the rulers? What is your answer to this quote by Sam Harris: "It should be enough to note that a single sociopath, armed with nothing more than a knife, could exterminate a city full of pacifists.  There is no doubt that such sociopaths exist, and they are generally better armed"?

 

Then you say that the military exists because humanity is not enough intelligent? That's why we NEED the military. If everyone was intelligent enough, I suppose, we wouldn't need it.. But the fact that sociopaths willing to kill pacifists exist, makes it pretty clear to me that nothing would work without military, at least if you value your life. If you don't value your life, then I get it.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Edvard

[Prabhaker]

30 minutes ago, Edvard said:

Everyone has their reason for killing somebody.

Why Iraq was invaded by America ? Why China invaded Tibet ? Why America invaded Vietnam ? We are living in a insane world. 

33 minutes ago, Edvard said:

Don't you think islamic fundamentalist groups willing to spread islam all over the world would exist if western military didn't exist?

Who has given modern arms and technology to the Islamic world ?

35 minutes ago, Edvard said:

nothing would work without military

Humanity can be peaceful and non-violent if we are raised in a sane society. Jainism is one of the oldest religion existing in the world , all its followers are living in India, they don't kill even insects. Followers of Jainism are most educated, prosperous and peaceful people in India, they are surviving without violence since thousands of years.

[Edvard]

Yes, we can survive without violence because people in the military protect us, protect our freedom to be pacifists. I'm not going to speculate in how the islamic world got technology or weapons. People can devolop things without our influence as well, like North Korea, they have a brain. The fact that the US military has done mistakes and aren't perfect doesn't explain nothing about whether the western world should have a military or not. Whatever way we fucked up in the past, maybe the cause of ISIS i.e., doesn't explain away the notion that we need the military now.

Again, I ask you: Are you for western countries to put down their intire military tomorrow, and what consequences would that have?

[Prabhaker]

2 minutes ago, Edvard said:

Are you for western countries to put down their intire military tomorrow, and what consequences would that have?

Western countries are more civilized now than rest of the world, they should be last to put down their military, but they must stop spread of arms and technology to the less civilized countries.

Unless the humanity becomes more civilized , more meditative we can't put down military but we can work in the direction of making a saner humanity by teaching meditation to new generations.  

[Prabhaker]

14 minutes ago, Edvard said:

People can devolop things without our influence as well, like North Korea, they have a brain.

Pakistan and China obtained technology from west , they supplied technology to the North Korea. West trusted wrong friends like Pakistan and China in the first place.

[Edvard]

You're probably right about that, but because the western world happened to develop this technology first and then spread it to other countries has nothing to do with the question of whether we should have military. Also, every country have their resources to build weopons and brains to develop technology. But I see you agree that we should have military now, thank you. That's really what I wondered. So the western world is waiting for other countries to put down their military first. It probably won't happen in the nearest future... Wonder what @Leo Gura actually means, though..

Edited May 31, 2017 by Edvard

[Prabhaker]

12 minutes ago, Edvard said:

whether we should have military

Till humans become more civilized we should have military, but spread of weapons and technology must be stopped.

15 minutes ago, Edvard said:

Also, every country have their resources to build weopons and brains to develop technology.

No, most of it is stolen or brought from the west.  West is responsible for the rise of China too.

18 minutes ago, Edvard said:

It probably want happen in the nearest future...

But west can collaborate with Russia and Japan to stop the rise of China and transfer of technology to Islamic world. 

[LowPlanetary]

Happiness isn’t inherently good, you placed that definition of happiness onto it. That’s the same with suffering. Since all definitions are made by the mind.

[Truth]

Has no one here seen hacksaw ridge? 

[Edvard]

1 minute ago, Truth said:

Has no one here seen hacksaw ridge? 

I've seen it

[Leo Gura]

@Edvard You are coming at this from egoic consciousness. Of course it doesn't make any sense to an ego to die. It will fight to the death to maintain itself.

But self-actualization is a process of moving out of that level of consciousness. Imagine a level of consciousness where you don't care if you die because inside you are already dead, and so in fact you are happy with no matter what happens.

I know it's hard to imagine for an ego. But hey, Jesus did it. And those conservatives sure love Jesus! Wouldn't it be nice if they actually took him seriously and walked his path?

The only thing standing in the way of your happiness, is you.

[Damir Elezi]

As you noted correctly, Good and evil are labels we apply to things we like or dislike. They create a dualism which does not exist in nature. I mean look at nature. Do you experience any Good or bad behavior? Almost any animal will give his own life if it is necessary. Everythimg consumes, Everything can inflict pain, Everything suffers somehow, Everything dies. Good and bad are different perspectives of the same thing, which are both necessary. This superficial dualism we put up does not affect the true nature of things. I think that, As Leo said, if you reach a high enough state of consciousness, you can be happy and content, no matter what happens to you, whether you're in pain or dying or anything physically. But of course - This is just a belief until you experience it.

About the military though, I wanted to share a funny truth with you. Those ISIS guys you consider to be pretty dangerous, They Do not see themselves As terrorists. They see themselves As rebels fighting off an opression of western culture against islam. If you join the military to protect your country against foreign attackers... Are you a soldier? Or a terrorist? As you see, Good and evil depends on perspective, They are fundamentally not existing. 

My advice: if you want to pursue a carreer in the military because you're just into all that stuff and want to become more disciplined and physically trained, I don't see a problem with it. Keep in mind however, that it will force you to strictly obey to rules other people have put up and conditions you to Do certain things unconsciously, which counteracts self-actualization work a little bit. 

BUT, if you want to join, because you think you are doing your country a favor by fighting people who are motivated by the same kind of mindset As the army you are fighting for... Will I think you might be deceiving yourself Then

No offense bro, I hope I could help

[Edvard]

@Damir Elezi That helped. But yeah, I know ISIS thinks they are doing good, that's why I said there is no such thing as good or evil. But they base their views on something we know isn't true. I know you can say, how do you know, it's obviously possible for them to be deluded, so how do you know you aren't deluded? Anything we do can be a delusion, but we just have to use our logic and do what we think is best compatible with reality. But yes, I do understand that consciousness is the only thing we can be 100% certain exists, and I don't really consider military from a nationalistic point of view, I just think that western military is necessary, and prevents the world from becoming a worse place (so in fact contributing to make it better). Is it low consiousness to make the world better? If so, why do anything, why isn't pursuing your life purpose in anything viewed as low consciousness, when firstly there is no definition of a good or bad world (so why contribute?), and you can be happy no matter what? I can see where it's coming from, but the notions in this self actualized environment just seem a little contradictary to me, sometimes.

[Edvard]

@Leo Gura So why live? Why go to the shop when feeling hungry instead of starving, acting on negative motivations? Why bother concentrating on avoiding traffic accidents? Why not let others torture you without resistance? Why shouldn't I do any of these things when enlightened, then? Why pursue life purpose when nothing is good or bad?

I guess I don't understand a damn thing, but I really want to.. as a 21 year old Norwegian.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Edvard

[Annie]

@Edvard I honestly didn't read through all the comments here but if you are interested in my two cents about the topic:

A couple of years ago I had considered joining the military because I was offered a good office job there but it would have required me going through the entire combat training process so I did the introductory part of that (seeing if you are physically and mentally fit enough which I was and pass some exams about the particular job I would have worked in which I passed as well) but I decided in the end I'm not interested. It's a personal decision whether you believe all the stuff about "defending your country" and kill on orders, to kill because you are being told to do so and not because you decide so.

I don't believe self-actualization and military work together.
 

Edited June 1, 2017 by Annie

[Visitor]

My thoughts on it.

Imagine a military offensive aiming to kill all those that wish to self-actualize. Wouldn't there be those who are willing to fight to protect the right of others to have a chance to self-actualize? Is not killing members of the offensive equally depriving them of the chance to self-actualize?  So both sides lose.

The thing is there are offensives which just want something the other has, like land, or a valuable resource, and are willing to kill for it. The innocent, like our children, will be killed without a chance to grow up and see and accept the truth of this insanity. The real sad thing is that the governments use the innocent infants to do the killing. Ironically they are called infantry.

As long as this world is greedy for validity of ego-self, there will always be wars. Always depriving others from awakening. 

I done six years in the RAAF. Got my instruments and avionics trades out of it. Luckily I missed any theaters of conflict. If one wishes to be in the military and avoid direct conflict, it is better to be an officer in the army, or a non-officer in the air-force. I took the later. The reasons are:

1. In the army it is the infantry that fight, and the officers stay back and out of danger.
2. In the navy, both officers and non-officers are in the same boat. There is no advantage here.
3. In the air force it is the officers that fly the planes and non-officers stay back and out of danger.

[Edvard]

@Visitor That made some sense. If I didn't have an ego, I wouldn't care if I existed or if ISIS existed. They would still kill me though, but that's fine. Is that sort of what you're saying?

Edited June 1, 2017 by Edvard