Response To A Friend

[Natasha]

Good morning and happy Saturday, everyone!

What would you say to a friend who is relentlessly trying to convert you back to Christianity? I was in Protestant church for over 2 decades before I got awakened about a year and a half ago. We have had discussions about what true spirituality is, God, ego, consciousness, belief systems, etc. I know they are coming from a place of concern and care thinking one's eternal salvation is at stake without believing in Jesus. In my turn, I wish them to see through the illusion of 'self' to be truly liberated.

I intend to let them read this thread, so if you'd like to contribute with your insights, please post your comments below.

Thank you  

 

[Prabhaker]

@Natasha

I will speak on Christ, but not on Christianity. Christianity has nothing to do with Christ. In fact, Christianity is anti-Christ — just as Buddhism is anti-Buddha and Jainism anti-Mahavir. Christ has something in him which cannot be organized: the very nature of it is rebellion and a rebellion cannot be organized. The moment you organize it, you kill it. Then the dead corpse remains. You can worship it, but you cannot be transformed by it. You can carry the load for centuries and centuries, but it will only burden you, it will not liberate you. That’s why, from the beginning, let it be absolutely clear: I am all for Christ, but not even a small part of me is for Christianity. If you want Christ, you have to go beyond Christianity. If you cling too much to Christianity, you will not be able to understand Christ. Christ is beyond all churches.

Christ is the very principle of religion. In Christ all the aspirations of humanity are fulfilled. He is a rare synthesis. Ordinarily a human being lives in agony, anguish, anxiety, pain and misery. If you look at Krishna, he has moved to the other polarity: he lives in ecstasy. There is no agony left; the anguish has disappeared. You can love him, you can dance with him for a while, but the bridge will be missing. You are in agony, he is in ecstasy — where is the bridge?

A Buddha has gone even farther away. He is neither in agony, nor in ecstasy. He is absolutely quiet and calm. He is so far away that you can look at him, but you cannot believe that he is. It looks like a myth — maybe a wish fulfillment of humanity. How can such a man walk on this earth, so transcendental to all agony and ecstasy? He is too far away.

Jesus is the culmination of all aspiration. He is in agony as you are, as every human being is born — in agony on the cross. He is in the ecstasy that sometimes a Krishna achieves: he celebrates; he is a song, a dance. And he is also transcendence. There are moments, when you come closer and closer to him, when you will see that his innermost being is neither the cross nor his celebration, but transcendence.

That’s the beauty of Christ: there exists a bridge. You can move towards him by and by, and he can lead you towards the unknown — and so slowly that you will not even be aware when you cross the boundary, when you enter the unknown from the known, when the world disappears and God appears. You can trust him, because he is so like you and yet so unlike. You can believe in him because he is part of your agony; you can understand his language.

That’s why Jesus became a great milestone in the history of consciousness. It is not just coincidental that Jesus’ birth has become the most important date in history. It has to be so. Before Christ, one world; after Christ, a totally different world has existed — a demarcation in the consciousness of man. There are so many calendars, so many ways, but the calendar that is based on Christ is the most significant. With him something has changed in man; with him something has penetrated into the consciousness of man. Buddha is beautiful, superb, but not of this world; Krishna is lovable — but still the bridge is missing. Christ is the bridge.

Hence I have chosen to talk on Christ. But remember always, I am not talking on Christianity. The Church is always anti-Christ. Once you try to organize a rebellion, the rebellion has to be subsided. You cannot organize a storm — how can you organize a rebellion? A rebellion is true and alive only when it is a chaos.

With Jesus, a chaos entered into human consciousness. Now the organization is not to be done on the outside, in the society; the order has to be brought into the innermost core of your being. Christ has brought a chaos. Now, out of that chaos, you have to be born totally new, an order coming from the innermost being — not a new Church but a new man, not a new society but a new human consciousness. That is the message.

And these words from the gospel of St. John — you must have heard them so many times, you must have read them so many times. They have become almost useless, meaningless, insignificant, trivial. They have been repeated so many times that now no bell rings within you when you hear them. But these words are tremendously potential. You may have lost the significance of them, but if you become a little alert, aware, the meaning of these words can be reclaimed. It is going to be a struggle to reclaim the meaning… just like you reclaim a land from the ocean.

Christianity has covered these beautiful words with so many interpretations that the original freshness is lost — through the mouths of the priests who are simply repeating like parrots without knowing what they are saying: without knowing, without hesitating, without trembling before the sacredness of these words. They are simply repeating words like mechanical robots. Their gestures are false, because everything has been trained.

Once I was invited to a Christian theological college. I was surprised when they took me around the college. It is one of the greatest theological colleges in India: every year they prepare two hundred to three hundred Christian priests and missionaries there — a five-year training. And everything has to be taught: even how to stand on the pulpit, how to speak, where to give more emphasis, how to move your hands — everything has to be taught. Then everything becomes false, then the person is just making empty gestures.

These words are like fire, but through centuries of repetition, parrot-like repetition, much dust has gathered around the fire. My effort will be to uncover them again. Be very alert because we will be treading on a well-known path in a very unknown way, treading on very well-known territory with a very different, totally new attitude. The territory is going to be old. My effort will be to give you a new consciousness to see it. I would like to lend you my eyes so that you can see the old things in new light. And when you have new eyes, everything becomes new.

-Osho

Excerpt from Come Follow To You, Volume 1, Chapter One

[Toby]

I would maybe relate your experience to what also can be found in Christianity. For example you could pick christian mystics like Bernadette Roberts or Meister Eckhart and then show your friends what in your experience the highest truth of Christianity is. Bernadette Roberts even has books where the "No Self" is in the title. You could also take Anthony de Mello as an example.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Toby

[egoeimai]

Lol Everyone has opinions. Keep yours,they'LL keep them.Thats fine. Love them for how they are,and If they dont love you for what you are&believe in,thats totally fine! Keep loving them. Forgive them because its their ego trying to tell u what to do. Also,they should see that they create their own reality not yours,and even If they try to change yours,they'll lose their path to whatever they want to experience! ???

[Shin]

I want to put a random meme so bad, but since the person will read the thread and that's Natasha,  I will refrain for my addiction

ONCE !

 

@Natasha

No inspiration.

 

Edited May 27, 2017 by Shin

[cetus]

@Natasha This is one of my favorite Mooji satsangs.  Jesus is not seen as "Other". "This is an unshared space. For it to be shared, there would have to be two. Here there is not even one"    How powerful is that! The problem I have with Christianity is that Jesus and God are viewed as "other".

Edited May 27, 2017 by cetus56

[zazed]

2 hours ago, Natasha said:

What would you say to a friend who is relentlessly trying to convert you back to Christianity?

I would say to a dude friend like so :
"Look, your a good friend and i love you, but i'm really not interested in Christianity anymore. I respect your faith and wouldn't force my beliefs upon you, unless you're interested. In the same way i would appreciated it if you respected my faith and did not try to force Christianity on me. Can we just not talk about this stuff anymore, and just have some fun with other stuff/topics."

If that wouldn't work, i would just ignore the dude and stop contacting him. Because a person who cannot respect my choices and who i am, is not really a friend after all.

Mind you, it also depends on you: Sometimes i will go into a philosophical discussion with people, that can become quite heated. At this point the discussion is the end-game here, and there is no conversion going on, its just a mental exercise for fun for both parties.
This is ok, because both parties consented to this discussion between faiths.

It's not ok if its forced upon you and it's disturbing your happiness.
 

[Natasha]

@Shin Go for it. You always pick good ones out to make a point 

[WelcometoReality]

@Natasha Acceptance is the common ground for spirituality and christianity. So instead of trying to convince each other about what opinion is the right one, how about you and your friends accept each other for what you are and accept that you have different opinions about the matter. You all want the best for one another but the fact is none of you will change opinions so why argue about it?

[Guest username]

@Natasha I'd say the strong appeal with Enlightenment is that you can investigate everything on your own and not rely on blind faith.

Of course, you have to take a leap of faith to invest in the journey and consider it worth seeking, but you can verify it all while you're actually alive and kicking.

Christianity is about faith despite evidence. True spirituality is about inquiry and Absolute Truth is not refuted by questioning. There's no need to ignore arguments against it and cling on to your position out of faith. You just keep inquiring and find your answers.

[Natasha]

@Prabhaker @Toby @egoeimai @Shin @cetus56 @zazed @WelcometoReality @John Flores @username

Thank you all again for taking the time to respond. All of your insights are much appreciated.

This thread is being forwarded to my friend now  

[Martin123]

@Natasha Compliment them on how beautiful they look. Thank them for caring and their amazing lovely invitation, and congratulate them on how brightly their light shines.

And then say" I love you very much. Let me allow you to be as much "you" as I can, whilst pursuing passions of mine. Only then will I be truly respectful towards your innocent amazing goodness. Thank you."

[Natasha]

@Martin123 I'll have to try that, thank you  

[Paintballer]

Use the teachings of christian mystics and the language she is used to, to help her find the pathless path towards god

[Natasha]

@Paintballer Yes, they like to quote scriptures and Bible-thumb a lot. And they don't recognize Christian mystics as authority. Last night we were talking about open-mindedness. I send them this quote