How Can You Tell If A Person Is Enlightened? (response To Leo's May 18 Insight)

[Alii]

One of the more intriguing subjects Leo talks about is enlightenment. Right now in my life this word enlightenment has a vague definition in my head, I can’t imagine what it would be like to have this “experience”, but nonetheless I do have a wishy-washy illustration of it. One of Leo’s older insight helped define it as a “persistent non symbolic” experience. Though I can’t see myself (currently) having this type of experience anytime soon, I do appreciate the idea of what it could be. I know I have a long way to fully grasp the nature of this topic. However, one of Leo’s recent insights made me wonder how I would to tell if a person is enlightened or not.

The insight topic was “Eating On An Empty Stomach”. In this insight, Leo claimed to have a friend who’s enlightened, and, for the sake of science, wanted to test 5-MeO-DMT on him. Unfortunately, Leo did not provide us with this individuals feedback on what he felt during his trip. Instead, Leo just tells us he ate before taking the drug, which resulted in him throwing up. Now, the thing that STRUCK me the most is what this individual ate. Apparently enlightened people still eat shitty fast food because Leo tells us quote:

 “10mg up the nose and 15 minutes later, he's vomiting his guts out on the living room floor. Like full-on. Half a gallon of violent nasty vomit. His entire dinner of giant cheeseburger and fries from the Cheesecake Factory.”

Like what? Seriously that was my reaction. “WHAT? A cheese burger?! And fries?!”

Haha  I don’t know if I’m just that narcissistic with my judgement, but the LAST thing I would imagine an enlightened person to be doing is eating a cheeseburger at the cheesecake factory.  After reading that insight I felt like all my beliefs of what an enlightened person would look like were shattered. This resulted in me wondering what a person has to be like (in everyday life) to be “enlightened”. It also made me wonder what this person said/showed to Leo to prove he is, in fact, enlightened. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Alii

[Guest Annetta]

Quote

The problem is that there are no absolute external signs that the person can rely on to determine if someone else is enlightened – unless he himself is. When asked about it, Ramana mentioned that, if in the presence of a teacher your mind spontaneously becomes quiet, and you feel a natural sense of reverence towards that person, this is a good indication that you are in front of a master.

Other than that, although there may be some common signs – such as absence of pride, equanimity in dealing with all people, and lack of ego-based actions, and harmlessness – the aspirant is left with few means to determine who is enlightened and who is still on the way. Special clothes, soft and even speaking, bombastic words, and the length of time one can gaze without blinking are NOT indications.

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[Visitor]

Lets assume Jesus Christ was an enlightened person. Unfortunately, much of the time he was not understood, yet they sensed his truth. Not much was written about what he had said over a three year period. I would say that most of it went over their heads. The bible even mentions how he got frustrated with his disciples for not understanding him over that three year period.

My conjecture is that his life reference was that of truth and love. While others, including his disciples, had a life reference of denial and fear.

An enlightened being is lit from the inside. Their reference point is love and truth and from this they see life crystal clear.

Others are in the dim / dark. Only a flicker of light is expressed whenever they are genuine. Their main reference point is fear and deception (denial) and from this they see life as a struggle through the dim/dark (the unknown).

So often, the enlightened one, would be seen as someone foreign, being misunderstood, using unusual words and phrases. Some even see them as simpletons because they don't make sense. Their words are often paradoxical because they can see both sides of light and dark. They can be seen as an enigma, and those with an ego to protect will feel threatened by them. Unfortunately, history shows us many examples of how the world has a way of silencing them.

[Leo Gura]

@Alii How many times do we have to say that you can be an enlightened rapist?

Enlightenment changes nothing. You can think of it this way: everyone is already enlightened, including Hitler.

EVERYTHING is GOOD. There are no restrictions upon reality. It can do whatever the hell it wants. To be at peace with that, is to be enlightened. To not be at peace with that, is also to be enlightened.

If you imagine yourself becoming the most morally perfect human being of all time, more moral than Jesus, you will be not one ounce better than Hitler. That is nonduality. So all your ideas about how enlightened people "ought" to be behave are just that -- your ideas, not the Truth. People are free to behave in all the ways the human body/mind is able to behave. How do you know it's Good? Because it's happening.

Don't be questioning God's creation with that little mind of yours You will always be wrong. Which of course, is just how it's supposed to be.

Not only did he eat a cheeseburger, we went to the best strip club in town and I bought him a lap dance so this stripper with perfect, melon-sized boobs smeared him across his face. And he enjoyed it. Fun was had by all.

That's life. So throw all your moralizing in the trash. It has nothing to do with enlightenment.

If you're thinking enlightenment will make you a good person, think again. If you were an asshole before enlightenment, you'll likely be an asshole long after enlightenment. God creates assholes, after all. Assholes are an integral part of creation. Just look at Trump

[Alii]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not only did he eat a cheeseburger, we went to the best strip club in town and I bought him a lap dance so this stripper with perfect, melon-sized boobs smeared him across his face. And he enjoyed it. Fun was had by all.

HAHA that made my night  thanks for the reply, Leo.

After that read I realized I have a lot more to learn, because everything else you said made VERY LITTLE sense to me, especially the "everyone is enlightened, including hitler" part.

I guess the vaguest statements have the most wisdom. But you know what, THAT'S OKAY.

[Leo Gura]

@Alii Enlightenment = Truth = existence itself. Anything that exists is part of what's true. Enlightenment is not a point of view. It's the fabric of reality itself. Instead of thinking that reality is made out of atoms, think of it as made out of enlightenment.

In spirituality, we're not dealing with human perspectives. We're dealing with the fabric of reality itself: consciousness. And consciousness constitutes all there is. So if Hitler exists, there he is... consciousness. When he exists in your mind, there he is... consciousness. What he's doing is irrelevant when it comes to the question of his substance. You don't say Hitler isn't made of atoms just because he killed a bunch of people. He's still made of atoms even if he's the most horrible person in the world. The atoms don't care. There are no "good" atoms and "bad" atoms. Hitler's not made out of "bad" atoms. They are exactly the same atoms. A quantum physicist doesn't care what Hitler did. Neither does a nondualist. At least not on the metaphysical level. On the practical level, the social level, the political level, of course we say it's "bad" and "don't be like Hitler".

[Alii]

@Leo Gura If that's the case, how can one ever be sure they're "enlightened"? If it's not a POV, but just reality itself. Are you implying that we need to just accept everything as it is? Aren't we all part of reality anyways? Also, I can't comprehend the "think of it as made out of enlightenment." I don't even know what enlightenment really is to begin with, let alone imagine it "making up reality" 

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Snick said:

But Leo! How come God is so incredible neurotic! God is really a scared, neurotic motherfucker?

Not that separate selves exists...but if they did exist, no separate self would even come close to be as scared, neurotic and stupid as God! 

He really takes the price, doesn't he? 

And in comparison to separate selves, God never learns! He go on for eternity and question him selves, always in this neurotic manner. He already did this for the whole eternity already. 

At least separate selves tends to learn from their mistakes! (Not that they exist, but you get the metaphor) 

Isn't this something to ponder?

I thought you disappeared?

God is only neurotic when it takes the form of a human. And even then, only certain kinds of humans.

18 minutes ago, Alii said:

@Leo Gura If that's the case, how can one ever be sure they're "enlightened"? If it's not a POV, but just reality itself. Are you implying that we need to just accept everything as it is? Aren't we all part of reality anyways? Also, I can't comprehend the "think of it as made out of enlightenment." I don't even know what enlightenment really is to begin with, let alone imagine it "making up reality" 

It's very obvious when you awaken. In the same way it's obvious when you awoke from last night's dream.

Of-fucking-course! Spirituality is nothing but accepting everything as it is. What else could it be? Anything else would be lies.

Enlightenment is nothing at all. So just imagine everything is made of nothing. Imagine that atoms are little balls of nothing. But drop the image of balls. So there's only one "atom" of nothing. But this nothing is infinitely everything. Which is why it's nothing. All the something's cancel out to zero. So everything and nothing are identical.

[Leo Gura]

@unknownworld Enlightenment is realizing all judgments are just stories.

Absurd? Not at all. Plenty of enlightened gurus and monks commit rape. Happens very often. Buddhist monks get raped by other Buddhist monks all the time! They will drag little boy monks out of their beds at night and rape them. Common practice in the East. Many famous gurus have sexually exploited their disciples. Of course. This should be expected.

Enlightenment is more nuanced than you've been lead to believe. It's not possible to walk down the sidewalk without inflicting suffering on others. Think of how many ants you've squashed in your lifetime. Think of how your carbon footprint, and other footprints, have lead to the deaths of thousands of animals and people around the world.

Yes, you're free to hurt others just as much as you hurt yourself. Think about how easily you hurt yourself.

Life is a messy, bloody business. That's enlightenment. Enlightenment doesn't mean rainbows and butterflies. It means warfare, torture, rape, theft, exploitation, slavery, concentration camps, etc. All of that is God. You cannot reject these things without going into delusion.

[Alii]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

. Buddhist monks get raped by other Buddhist monks all the time! They will drag little boy monks out of their beds and rape them.

 

[Guest username]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@unknownworld

Absurd? Not at all. Plenty of enlightened gurus and monks commit rape. Happens very often. Buddhist monks get raped by other Buddhist monks all the time! They will drag little boy monks out of their beds at night and rape them. Common practice in the East.

Is this the same as the Zen-devilry you've warned us about, or is there a distinction I'm failing to see?  

Is moral cultivation necessary for the highest attainments (not planning on raping anyone anyway); I've been reading mixed things from different teachers.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, username said:

Is this the same as the Zen-devilry you've warned us about, or is there a distinction I'm failing to see?  

You could call it Zen-Devilry, but that would just be a label. Doesn't matter what you call it, it is exactly what it is. Calling it anything just creates a level of abstraction and delusion.

Calling someone a "Zen Devil" has a moral component to it. It's a judgment. You're saying, "Being a Zen Devil is wrong". When in reality, it's not wrong at all. It is exactly what it is. God loves Zen Devils, which is why so many of them exist.

1 hour ago, username said:

Is moral cultivation necessary for the highest attainments

Strictly speaking, no. Because the Truth is total freedom. And there is nothing wrong with inflicting suffering on anyone. "Wrong" is a dualistic concept. "Suffering is bad and shouldn't occur" is also a dualistic concept.

But usually there is some correlation. In that, once the ego has been rubbed out a lot, there's less desire or need to do selfish things. And also, the negative consequences of selfish acts becomes very obvious and transparent. So it's harder to harm others because you'll see how it just makes your own life a hassle. You don't walk into a bank with a rifle because it's just a plain stupid move for you. Because you're conscious enough to see that you'll immediately get shot in the face.

But this does not by any means mean that you will not inflict damage to people just by your very existence. To exist, you must create collateral damage. The only question is, how much? The greatest Buddha still creates collateral damage just by breathing.

Part of your enlightenment path and your spiritual development will require that you deeply contemplate all this for yourself. You're gonna have to reconcile morality with Truth. And it's probably not gonna be like your ego would like. Your ego wants the world to be rainbows and butterflies. But that's just not at all reality. It will be painful for many of you to accept that. You're gonna have to fully accept, for example, that your child could get raped, and that that is Good, and that is God's love, and that you must be humble enough to surrender to it.

See... this spirituality business isn't for most folks. It's a bit hardcore. It really means you have to give up your self. No kidding! This isn't philosophy. You actually must live this way.

Most people would call it total insanity. Certainly appears that way from a self's perceptive. The self defines sanity as that which serves itself. Of course! That's what selves do.

[Alii]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And there is nothing wrong with inflicting suffering on anyone. "Wrong" is a dualistic concept.

But Leo what about Law? what about prison? If there's nothing wrong with inflicting suffering on anyone, how can that type of mentality work on the "real" world?

Also If a judge is "enlightened" and follows all the principles you just given us, wouldn't they understand that this rapist, or murderer, or whatever they did is just part of reality itself and that there's NOTHING wrong with what they did? How would that work? 

[Key Elements]

@Alii There is a difference between having an "enlightenment experience" and actually being enlightened. A person gets to see everything being one during an "enlightenment experience." Now, if the person could live his/her life knowing that everything is one, then you have an enlightened person. An enlightened person shows, not tells.

[Guest username]

@Alii Legal systems need not be about  absolute/metaphysical morality alone. Law is predicated on arbitrary human preferences (as is our morality for functional purposes). There may not be anything wrong with murder from the perspective of the absolute, but the same can be said of anything else.  It's not absolutely wrong to have laws than punish people for reasons X,Y,Z.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Alii said:

But Leo what about Law? what about prison? If there's nothing wrong with inflicting suffering on anyone, how can that type of mentality work on the "real" world?

Also If a judge is "enlightened" and follows all the principles you just given us, wouldn't they understand that this rapist, or murderer, or whatever they did is just part of reality itself and that there's NOTHING wrong with what they did? How would that work? 

It cannot work in the "real world", which is why the "real world" is a fake Hollywood stage built on lies. The cost of having a smooth-running "real world" is lying your ass off to everyone, especially yourself. (Again, Trump is a great example of this.) His lying is precisely why he's become so successful. You cannot do what Trump does and be enlightened at the same time. Your head would explode from the cognitive dissonance. It only works because he lies to himself first.

See... Truth is VERY antithetical to self-survival. Notice how your question only cares about self-survival, not Truth.

In this work you have to be willing to say... fuck it... if the Truth kills me, so be it. I will take death and Truth over the "real world". Not many people want to make that commitment, understandably. Hence few people are truly spiritual.

Yes, if the judge was enlightened, he wouldn't be a judge at all. Because judgment is a lie. It wouldn't work in our current system. But then again, you gotta consider the full picture here. If the judge literally experienced all of reality to be perfect, then what would be the problem? Rape wouldn't bother him. See... unconditional happiness is a tricky thing. You think you want it, but do you really? Are you cool enough to be happy with rape? See... spirituality is too radical for most people. They want enlightenment to conform to human norms. But of course that cannot be because enlightenment is Absolute.

Alternatively, an enlightened judge could be honest and say, "This rapist is a lovely person, one of God's creatures. I understand that he only broken an arbitrary law which our community has created. But, he broke the law, for which there are consequences! So I will put him to death. I will chop off his head with my own hand because that's what our community has agreed to as the proper punishment, and I swore that I would uphold the law when I took this job." That's totally viable. And it's honest. Nothing about enlightenment says that you cannot create or enforce laws. But is it right or wrong to kill a rapist? Neither. Those are ego-created labels and delusions.

Human laws are not based on justice or Truth. They are based on arbitrary human needs, which are then wrapped in a veneer of justice, freedom, truth, and goodness, so that their arbitrariness and selfishness can be denied. So you can enforce a law and feel justified about it at the same time. That's the magic of the legal system. It's a bullshit machine. It's built on pure bullshit. Yes, even The Constitution, all of it! Just self-righteous ego-stuff designed to enable society. It does a damn fine job. But it's bullshit.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, unknownworld said:

That is Zen-Devilry, not enlightenment. Just because one is a Buddhist monk, doesn't mean that they are enlightened. Same applies for famous gurus.

Why are you assuming that just because someone is a Buddhist monk that they are enlightened? 

Warfare, torture, rape, theft results from unconsciousness. Yes you accept those things(and don't judge others personally), but you don't consciously do them! Not because of some moral principles, but it's a automatic, just as you wouldn't stab yourself.

You are talking about enlightenment from a purely conceptual standpoint, which leads to Zen-Devilry.

Of course not all monks are enlightened. But just study this subject in some depth and you'll see many enlightened masters who were morally questionable. Because morality is relative. Like REALLY! You're not grasping this yet. It's totally made up! It changes across culture and time. So there is no absolute standard. If you were born in the Middle East 1000 years ago, you could probably be enlightened and chop people's heads off without too much problem. Nowadays, it's a bit harder. But still... plenty of latitude.

You gotta understand, once you're enlightened, you REALLY accept yourself. So if you were a rapist, those rapist animal tendencies will still be there -- they will not magically disappear -- and you will not think of them as "wrong" either, because you'll clearly understand that "wrong" is a concept. So you will be quite free at that point to do whatever the fuck you think is right, and whatever your body/mind is pulled towards doing. In the same way that a lion will not worry about eating you. He's not gonna have moral qualms about it. He will fucking eat you and be happy about it. The lion is not gonna sit there thinking, "Oh gee... maybe eating him is wrong? I shouldn't have this hunger for human meat. I am so wicked! Why has God cursed me with this craving? Why God, why?!!! I know... I will just hold back. I will resist. I will be a good little lion the way humans want me to be."

He's a lion, not a Catholic!

[Orpheus]

"But Leo, what about...."  That makes me giggle a bit. Sorry, I just thought this thread needed a little respectful levity.

[Prabhaker]

6 minutes ago, unknownworld said:

Warfare, torture, rape, theft results from unconsciousness.

It is materialistic to think that one is violent or non-violent. He is a materialist who believes he can kill someone, and he too is a materialist who thinks he is not going to kill anyone. Spirituality rejects both violence and non-violence. 

[Alii]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Human laws are not based on justice or Truth. They are based on arbitrary human needs, which are then wrapped in a veneer of justice, freedom, truth, and goodness, so that their arbitrariness and selfishness can be denied. So you can enforce a law and feel justified about it at the same time. That's the magic of the legal system. It's a bullshit machine. It's built on pure bullshit. Yes, even The Constitution, all of it! Just self-righteous ego-stuff designed to enable society. It does a damn fine job. But it's bullshit.

What an eye opening statement, thank you for that  Leo.

This alone is making me wonder what is next for humanity. Will we ever move past the bullshit? Past the religion? Past the law? Will humanity ever unite together instead of being  separated by race, land, wealth, social status, etc?

Edited May 24, 2017 by Alii