How Can You Tell If A Person Is Enlightened? (response To Leo's May 18 Insight)

[Timotheus]

 

 

[harisankartj]

soooo, basically what Leo and others here are saying is that Life is like a GTA game where anything goes,and when the body mind dies the game is temporarily over ...only to respawn somewhere else as somebody else?

BOY... no wonder i have motivation problems to work hard,,, i keep getting existential and getting nowhere...

But ... the only sensible thing to do,as far as i can see...is to sit in a room and just exist? or go rebel on everything and waste life? because there seems to be a lot of "control" happening inside me

I ALWAYS KNEW IT MADE NO SENSE TO BE GOOD!

Edited May 26, 2017 by harisankartj

[sweater]

On 5/24/2017 at 11:01 PM, sweater said:

 

Not all going to be alright.

 

Change of thought. Maybe it will all be alright in the end end.

[Dodo]

Got an insight from the talk about shit.

You can be non judgemental about actual shit, but that don't mean you're going to eat it ?

So you can be non-judgmental towards other people's opinions but that dont mean you need to agree with them

[Norbert Somogyi]

A few days ago there was this man sitting in front of me on the subway. I realized that I kept looking at him, I found myself unable to resist. I am also male, and it doesn't have to do with sexuality at all. He was a simple aging guy with balding hair. I couldn't even come up with an explanation as to why I couldn't resist looking at him. It's certainly unsure whether he was enlightened or not, however doesn't high consciousness affect people around you in some way or another? He seemed so calm and unbothered by anything. 

[SOUL]

16 hours ago, Alii said:

@SOUL You know this is really interesting..... do you think it's ever possible to stay in the "present" moment for good? Do you really think that's what enlightenment is? Being consciously present in the moment? 

If so (back to the original thread topic), do you still think Leo's friend is really enlightened? Or do you think he's stuck in the 'no-self' dogma bullshit you talked about earlier?

@Alii We are always in the present moment, we cannot ever be out of the present moment, the distinction comes in either attentive to being present or distracted from being present. We potentially can have presence, as it is also called, in every moment or never and anywhere in between.

The mind, at the behest of the ego, prefers to view enlightenment as some esoteric knowledge, difficult to attain understanding and rigorous process that completely depends on the mind and the ego to achieve it. Almost as if it's an ironic cosmic joke spiritual enlightenment doesn't require any of what the mind and ego think it does but in fact only consists of a simple and natural expression of awareness.

The mind and the ego does not want to believe it and by it's very nature cannot believe it is unneeded to be so it will do whatever it can to distract us from just being here now.

I don't know this friend and I don't know what or if he is anything. If something prevents us from being aware of presence yet our mind clings to it as if it's valuable to us that is dogmatic, whatever that something is.

Edited May 26, 2017 by SOUL

[abrakamowse]

@Orange  

Spiritual Bypassing

It can feel like you are stuck in a kind of hell. Unable to go back to the old ways of excess, avoidance, and unconscious suffering, but also unable to open fully to a new way of life. You have one foot in and one foot out. The resistance to embracing the next iteration of your awakening can be strong as all get out. It can come in the form of falling back into old self-destructive patterns (which, sorry to say, won’t give you the fix they used to), becoming “depressed” and attaching to that identity, and the good ol’ trick of spiritual bypassing.

Spiritual bypassing is when you use your past insights to avoid your present feelings. I’ve seen that there is no self, so I don’t need to do any personal work. Everything is love so I can just ignore how much I hate myself right now. I know suffering is optional, I’m not suffering, I’m past that point. Really.

 

More here:

http://deconstructingyourself.com/mindful-awakening.html

 

I am learning about that myself. I just send you the link because I noticed how similar was to what you were talking about. 

 

[Leo Gura]

11 hours ago, harisankartj said:

soooo, basically what Leo and others here are saying is that Life is like a GTA game where anything goes,and when the body mind dies the game is temporarily over ...only to respawn somewhere else as somebody else?

BOY... no wonder i have motivation problems to work hard,,, i keep getting existential and getting nowhere...

But ... the only sensible thing to do,as far as i can see...is to sit in a room and just exist? or go rebel on everything and waste life? because there seems to be a lot of "control" happening inside me

I ALWAYS KNEW IT MADE NO SENSE TO BE GOOD!

I said nothing about respawning.

"The only sensible thing to do..." << that is just monkey mind coming up with justifications again. You can do whatever you want.

"I always knew it made no sense to be good" << again, be careful of ego misappropriating these teachings. What was said was simply: "good" is a construction of your mind. This doesn't say anything about how you should behave.

[Leo Gura]

18 hours ago, Maxx said:

I think I know better what Leo is pointing at. He explained it more than once. He says for example that reality itself is Maya, "an infinite hallucination". And that "the waking state (life) has exactly as much reality as the dreaming state". This is exactly what is negated and refuted in the higher Buddhist teachings. He just hasn't done his research well, which I don't want to judge as such. Nobody is omniscient. What is bad is that he claims the knowledge high-ground, treating other people as "spiritual retards" in general as someone correctly pointed out in the YouTube-comment-section recently , and reacting arrogant and contemptuous when someone points out some of this stuff. You cannot tell anything to people with this kind of attitude. Not only is their cup full. When you tell them to empty their cup, they say "who the fuck are you to tell me to empty my cup" so to speak. I only can just wish those people good luck, but I don't have anything to tell them, since they don't listen anyway. Some people want to take the long way.

In Buddhism it is about emptiness (Śūnyatā) and dependent arising (Pratītyasamutpāda).

You seem to like dragging Leo into this. Leo's got nothing to do with it.

Watch your projecting. You speak of things which are utterly beyond your present experience.

[nightrider1435]

@abrakamowse I'm in this phase right now. Every word of that matches exactly to what has been happening to me lately. Basically one foot in and  one foot out. This helped clear some things up, thanks for the share!

Edited May 27, 2017 by nightrider1435

[abrakamowse]

@nightrider1435 Glad to know it can be of help for you. I like that website. I would recommend you to listen to their podcast. Really interesting.

[Orange]

 

7 hours ago, abrakamowse said:

@Orange  

Spiritual Bypassing

It can feel like you are stuck in a kind of hell. Unable to go back to the old ways of excess, avoidance, and unconscious suffering, but also unable to open fully to a new way of life. You have one foot in and one foot out. The resistance to embracing the next iteration of your awakening can be strong as all get out. It can come in the form of falling back into old self-destructive patterns (which, sorry to say, won’t give you the fix they used to), becoming “depressed” and attaching to that identity, and the good ol’ trick of spiritual bypassing.

Spiritual bypassing is when you use your past insights to avoid your present feelings. I’ve seen that there is no self, so I don’t need to do any personal work. Everything is love so I can just ignore how much I hate myself right now. I know suffering is optional, I’m not suffering, I’m past that point. Really.

 

More here:

http://deconstructingyourself.com/mindful-awakening.html

 

I am learning about that myself. I just send you the link because I noticed how similar was to what you were talking about. 

 

thanks mouse 

[Geo]

Yeah... enlightenment an excuse to subjugate, exploit and abuse women, children and animals. Just what we need more of.

 

A woman being raped is the same as a lion eating it's prey? If that's what enlightenment means then you can keep it.

[Prabhaker]

35 minutes ago, Geo said:

Yeah... enlightenment an excuse to subjugate, exploit and abuse women

World is very mysterious, we can't understand everything with a logical mind.

What if someone needs raping ?

Mac McClelland, a civil rights reporter who simulated her own rape to cure her PTSD after being with a mutilated rape victim in Haiti.

[Geo]

22 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

World is very mysterious, we can't understand everything with a logical mind.

What if someone needs raping ?

Mac McClelland, a civil rights reporter who simulated her own rape to cure her PTSD after being with a mutilated rape victim in Haiti.

Not read it, but my first response would be if it's rape by consent, then it's not rape, it's a contradiction.  Rape is non consensual.

To me it seems like enlightenment, from the perspective of actualized.org is going down the same route as every other religion. And women, children and animals don't do so well out of those. It seems best it best serves young, single men. Oh well.

[AlwaysBeNice]

You would never want to violate someone's will.

The idea that empathy plays no role in awakening is a big misunderstanding.

Empathy is conscious love, extended to another, often for us because of the unconscious sensing you are actually intimately connected with them, masters do not just know this unconsciously but consciously.

Just as no rational human (one that isn't deeply emotionally confused/traumatized) starts paining or damaging it's own body without a cause, means they wouldn't hurt you, as you are part of their body.

Just as a sane mother cares for her children they care for you.

.

I think you only have a hard time accepting this if you can't feel Gods love for you.

Which is confusing, right? Because why wouldn't it be given to you?

But it is given to you, but you are blocking it through your (unconscious) defense systems/the identity you've build up, and it takes a lot of honesty and humility to learn and accept that.

And it's seems safer to deny that for the negative ego, that it's justified you are in pain because life may be 'evil', causing you to look for strange reasons to fear God, 'because rapists exists', or worse and more delusional 'masters rape'.
Stop thinking and start feeling, a lot, and you'll find out all your paranoid thoughts stem from emotional blocks in the bodies.

[Prabhaker]

17 minutes ago, Geo said:

my first response would be if it's rape by consent, then it's not rape

It is rape , some women fantasize about rape instead of consensual sex. 

20 minutes ago, Geo said:

To me it seems like enlightenment, from the perspective of actualized.org is going down the same route as every other religion

Every religion is misunderstood, that's why every religion fails. Nobody is saying that rape is a door to enlightenment. But an enlightened person is unpredictable , out of compassion he can do anything.

If anything bad happens in this world, God is responsible, do you think God is not compassionate? Do you think bad things happen without cosmic will ? 

20 minutes ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

Just as no rational human (one that isn't deeply emotionally confused/traumatized) starts paining or damaging it's own body without a cause

Do you know how Buddha tortured himself on his journey towards enlightenment ? Socrates preferred drinking the poison instead of stop preaching.

[Prabhaker]

@Geo

Whatever an enlightened person do is virtue. Whatever we do in our unconsciousness is sin, even our so called love is violence. All the breakups , divorces happen due to our love. Our love turns into possessiveness, jealousy , hate.

Without violence we can't live for a moment, an enlightened person tries to do minimum violence possible.

When we breathe , micro organisms are killed. When we do sex , millions of sperm cells die , these cells can give birth to new life. 

Jesus physically throw out the money changers instead of winning the argument with reason, we can't understand the ways of enlightened persons.

[Nahm]

Great convo on relativity, just circular without understanding the uncertainty principle, the relationship between mindy body / perspective & collapse, and the 'exterior reality' that keeps getting referred to as an illusion is not seperate and not a no thing, even as it is constructed of no thing, which is not no thing - but you. Lots of references to things 'being' what they are unrelated & seperate from the observer, which was proven to be an incorrect assumption about a hundred years ago. This is the nature, not what's been talked about here. It is not enlightened to say that anything, reality, morals, anything, are true in any objective way because no thing is other than what an individual collapses and the individual is the same nature as any thing collapsed. This is why we learn about ourselves in learning about what we're collapsing, and why we learn about what we're collapsing when we learn about ourselves. This is how the universe is expanding within itself. When you say it is this or that, you are not wrong, you are right, because it's that individual perspective that is doing the collapsing perpetuating the very expansion. There's a level of enlightened to say everything is nothing and is accepted, and after that there is another level of enlightenment that says it is what it is because of and only because of the collapse process, which an observer is at the helm of by default, and can influence, shape and create. The choice is so powerful that one can even believe that in nihilism they are not choosing. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by Nahm

[abrakamowse]

@Geo did you read about spiritual bypassing?