How Can You Tell If A Person Is Enlightened? (response To Leo's May 18 Insight)

[Guest username]

10 hours ago, aurum said:

What @Leo Gura has been saying in this thread is spot on guys.

This is that "dirty" part of enlightenment no one likes to touch. It's all fun and games when it's about becoming the most loving person, i.e the egos ultimate  desire to be seen as "good" and therefore finally accept itself. But as soon as someone points out the obvious, which is that "no rules" also means you could stab some repeatidly in the throat and it wouldn't be "bad", people freak.

The emotional reactions I'm seeing shows that Leo is striking a nerve. Why? Because deep down you know he is right. How could you not? You made it up.

This is why I keep saying I love Jed McKenna as a spiritual teacher. He just slams you with this over and over again. I'm greatful he was one of my introductions to this work, even though I hated it.

I absolutely still struggle with this myself. You probably can't grasp the sheer amorality of life until you've had at least one enlightenment experience. It literally is not much different than how you'd feel about some characters in a movie. It's just a huge joke.

And where does much of your suffering come from? From not accepting this.

I went through the typical butt-hurt atheist phase where I couldn't understand why a loving God would allow so much suffering. But notice that's YOUR OWN belief that suffering is bad. And it's completely externally focused with no personal responsibility.

You have no problem with suffering if it means killing some animals for you to eat or wear clothing. What's so bad about suffering then? 

There is a silver lining in all this, which is that you actually end up loving life more, not less because of this. But it won't nessesarily match up with another person's definition of love. And sometimes it's better not to mention this because it can become just another delusion trap. Sometimes what people need is to get hit with a stick.

I actually grew out of that phase a few years ago, when I performed a little thought experiment.  This was before I knew what enlightenment was, but it ended up being a very relevant insight later.

I know conceptualization is not enlightenment and don't claim to have an enlightenment experience, but it's about the closest I've come through sheer thought.

I imagined an unconditionally loving, infinite God, and I kept inquiring into what truly unconditional love would be like.  At first, it was your typical "love everyone and want nobody to suffer," type of idea.

My thought process followed roughly like this:

-If God is infinite and loves all of creation, wouldn't he also love the suffering? Isn't my view just anthropocentrism?

- What would it look like to love absolutely everything? If God is infinite, what does it look like?

- Isn't my idea of love intrinsically based on conditions and distinctions? Wouldn't loving indiscriminately just look like absolute nihilism? If God is infinite and omnipresent, doesn't that just make it reality itself, not just the material world but also the immaterial? 

I'm also a mathematician in the making, so I know about concepts like absolute infinity and Georg Cantor's work, which really mindfucked me. Godel's incompleteness theorem and knowing about the limits of logic and rationality is what sent me over the edge and eventually led me to trying to understand reality from a place beyond thought, which I was clueless how to do until I came to Leo's channel and heard about enlightenment.

I was just here to learn how to make a girl squirt but ended up getting more than I bargained for.

 

Edited May 25, 2017 by username

[SOUL]

If enlightenment is just being present in awareness and accepting what is as it is then people who spend no time at all concerned about what's real or illusion, about what's truth or false and about the "right" techniques or methods of spirituality are the most enlightened..... essentially, the most enlightened individual we know is our pets.

So I will be meditating on the couch with my guru as they lick themselves.

[Guest username]

@SOUL I'm not so sure that's what Enlightenment is though.  Enlightenment is about insight into your true nature, which isn't necessarily a natural consequence of being in the now.  Being in the Now is just a state experience, not insight. Enlightened people can't still get lost in thought and daydream about the past and future.

[Guest username]

@Fidelio I think Prab knows that though. It's just word choice.

You can say everything just is and all is without reason, or you can say everything is happening according to all reasons and is as it should be.

 

[Prabhaker]

13 minutes ago, Fidelio said:

There are no "laws of existence"; the universe is chaotic, random

Is it your realization or you believe it ?

[SOUL]

@username An awakening is an insight into our genuine nature while one is under the perception of being separate from that genuine nature and it is something to achieve, enlightenment is the realization, as in making it real in us, that one isn't separate from being our genuine nature through just being it in the present.....just like Sir Pawsalot is being.

The difference between them and us, as it is asserted, is that they aren't aware of themselves as an aware being, they are just an aware being accepting of what is as is it without being aware themselves as such, while we are aware that we are. It's just an increased degree of awareness of being aware that we possess which ironically is what hinders us from being present, we often employ that expanded degree of awareness to be anyplace but present to the moment.

So a dog or cat is "enlightened" without ever seeking enlightenment because it isn't ever not aware of being in the present moment and accepting of what is as it is, that's it's genuine nature and it doesn't cease to be it, although, it just isn't aware of it, we are aware of it. Yet we can turn our awareness away from being present in the moment through preoccupation with the past, the future, our story and a myriad of fixations.

Edited May 26, 2017 by SOUL

[Prabhaker]

Just now, Fidelio said:

but the current evidence suggests the universe is random and chaotic

What is the 'current evidence' ?

[Prabhaker]

40 minutes ago, Fidelio said:

One such universal truth is that an individual cannot come to an awakening if they have a desire to harm others

Act of harm , doesn't mean desire to harm, a compassionate person can kill.

[Guest username]

@SOUL I  think I see what you're saying. 

Though, do you think if human were always in the present moment without regard to past or future, we'd be enlightened?

Presence is a part of it, but what about insight into the no-self?

 

I'm not sure it's known whether or not animals have a sense of self. I doubt it's conceptualized.

[Prabhaker]

Just now, Fidelio said:

Maybe you should take a physics class or three? I don't get paid enough to do online seminars 

There is no such evidence, are you a science graduate ?

[Prabhaker]

1 minute ago, Fidelio said:

The desire (intention) to harm someone is different from doing it accidentally

An enlightened person can kill intentionally , sometimes we have to choose from lesser evil and greater evil.

[Prabhaker]

Just now, Fidelio said:

Oh, you are trolling. It's hard to remember who all the different trolls are here

Carry on.

What is the evidence that 'universe is random and chaotic' ? 

[SOUL]

@username  That "no-self" stuff is just dogmatic bullshit... pun intended. The "no-self" quest is just another concept that people's minds will get fixated on and be a distraction from being present to the moment. What does 'endarken' our perception is when the sense of self distracts our awareness from being present, so to 'enlighten' our perception we attune our awareness back to being in the present moment.

In the aware presence of being there is no attention being placed on concepts of self or no-self, truth or false, reality or illusion. Our attention is placed on the moment, on being here now and any sense of self that would need to be entertained are the ones that are of the moment. If they are not required for attending to the moment we can let them pass right on by without giving a second thought about them.

Some animals have a sense of self, which and how many and to what degree I cannot say for sure but there are animals that have social dynamics to their genuine nature so possess a sense of self even if it's primitive compared to ours.

 

[Guest username]

@SOUL So you maintain the non-duality is just dogmatic bullshit, and the enlightenment is really about presence, correct?

[SOUL]

@username  Well, sure, it can be dogmatic bullshit, any concept can be used by the mind to distract from presence. Even thinking something is or isn't dogmatic bullshit can become a concept distraction to the mind. Our awareness of being presence doesn't require we hold any position on any concept, it's only requirement is just being present to the moment and in that exercise of consciousness it is fulfilled.

[Guest username]

@SOUL I understand that concept can be dogma, but you see that I'm talking in terms of concept because it's necessary for communication.

 

What I mean is, do you think there is non-duality? Do you think that stuff about no-self is just a lie? 

Do you think being present to the moment is the only valid means of spiritual insight?

[LRG]

Enlightenment is a temporary state of being. I don't put any effort into achieving it nor do I want it even if it was given to me a on a silver platter.

"Consciousness is awareness of self in all aspects of time." 

What time is it? Same time it was 5 seconds ago... now. Make the most of the time you have because this experience is a short one.

If it is knowledge or truth you seek, go to the place where you know nothing. If it is experience you seek, you adopt a "self" and go find what you are searching for. 

[Guest username]

Just finished my first reading of Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha.

I'm going to have to go back and read it many more times to get all the insights Daniel Ingram dropped on me, but I highly recommend it to anyone interested in this topic. He did an amazing job of addressing the various models of Enlightenment. I don't have the level of spiritual insight to confirm or deny his  complete teaching, but I found it very helpful and lucid and definitely worth the read.  Based on what I've experienced so far, I think the man is legit.

[SOUL]

@username

Will any of that cease the mind's distraction from presence?

Or is it contributing to your mind's distraction from presence?

 

[Guest username]

@LRG Enlightenment is not a state experience. It's a realization of your true existential nature. 

You realize the three characteristics (impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and no-self) in all your sensory experiences to help you acquire deeper and deeper levels on insight.