How Can You Tell If A Person Is Enlightened? (response To Leo's May 18 Insight)

[Loreena]

2 hours ago, Snick said:

  

We even livestream violent gang rapes,                                                                                                          

That's making me sick to my stomach. 

 

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[Prabhaker]

3 minutes ago, Loreena said:

That's making me sick to my stomach. 

if you wannabe a monk, stop judging. Enlightenment is a simple realization that everything is as it should be.

[Loreena]

Just now, Prabhaker said:

if you wannabe a monk, stop judging. Enlightenment is a simple realization that everything is as it should be.

Well you can't call that judgment when you get the feeling to puke. That's natural human instinct. Are we supposed to suppress our natural instincts ?

[Loreena]

6 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

if you wannabe a monk, stop judging. Enlightenment is a simple realization that everything is as it should be.

Do you mean to say that monks have no problem watching livestreamed gang rapes. Ouuuuuch ! I might have to rethink about my plans to become a monk then. 

[Prabhaker]

6 minutes ago, Loreena said:

Are we supposed to suppress our natural instincts ?

It is not natural instinct, it is your social conditioning. 

Just now, Loreena said:

Do you mean to say that monks have no problem watching livestreamed gang rapes. Ouuuuuch ! I might have to rethink about my plans to become a monk then. 

People who watch  livestreamed gang rapes are not monks still people like watching violent sex, their conditioning is different.

A Buddha knows that unawareness is the real problem , some people are involved in such activities, some people get the feeling to puke, both are unaware. 

[Prabhaker]

21 minutes ago, Loreena said:

I might have to rethink about my plans to become a monk then. 

So, you were thinking that becoming a monk is fun !

◄ Matthew 7:1 ► Jesus said: Don't judge others, and God won't judge you.

[Loreena]

5 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

So, you were thinking that becoming a monk is fun !

◄ Matthew 7:1 ► Jesus said: Don't judge others, and God won't judge you.

No I was thinking that it was serious business. Your words made it seem like it was vacuous. 

[Prabhaker]

1 minute ago, Loreena said:

Your words made it seem like it was vacuous.

When you will reach at higher states of consciousness, then you will know that everything is as it should be, everything is utterly perfect as it is. This is what enlightenment is. It is the understanding that all is good, that all is beautiful – and it is beautiful as it is. Everything is in tremendous harmony, in accord.

[pluto]

I'm going to play with some toddlers, its easier that way

[Barna]

Saying that everything is perfect is the male part of the understanding.
Saying that everything is me is the female part of understanding.

The male part is about accepting the perfection, releasing judgments.
The female part is about loving everything, pulling everything into you.

These two kinds of understanding are perfectly present in everyone of us as the act of breathing. We exhale releasing the old breath and we inhale pulling the fresh air into us.

Leo mostly talks about the male part of the understanding. Of course it feels wrong. Try to continuously exhale without inhaling. :)) 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Barna

[aurum]

What @Leo Gura has been saying in this thread is spot on guys.

This is that "dirty" part of enlightenment no one likes to touch. It's all fun and games when it's about becoming the most loving person, i.e the egos ultimate  desire to be seen as "good" and therefore finally accept itself. But as soon as someone points out the obvious, which is that "no rules" also means you could stab some repeatidly in the throat and it wouldn't be "bad", people freak.

The emotional reactions I'm seeing shows that Leo is striking a nerve. Why? Because deep down you know he is right. How could you not? You made it up.

This is why I keep saying I love Jed McKenna as a spiritual teacher. He just slams you with this over and over again. I'm greatful he was one of my introductions to this work, even though I hated it.

I absolutely still struggle with this myself. You probably can't grasp the sheer amorality of life until you've had at least one enlightenment experience. It literally is not much different than how you'd feel about some characters in a movie. It's just a huge joke.

And where does much of your suffering come from? From not accepting this.

I went through the typical butt-hurt atheist phase where I couldn't understand why a loving God would allow so much suffering. But notice that's YOUR OWN belief that suffering is bad. And it's completely externally focused with no personal responsibility.

You have no problem with suffering if it means killing some animals for you to eat or wear clothing. What's so bad about suffering then? 

There is a silver lining in all this, which is that you actually end up loving life more, not less because of this. But it won't nessesarily match up with another person's definition of love. And sometimes it's better not to mention this because it can become just another delusion trap. Sometimes what people need is to get hit with a stick.

[Mondsee]

@Leo Gura Ah! I see! Thanks for that!

[Orange]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

 

There is a silver lining in all this, which is that you actually end up loving life more, not less because of this. But it won't nessesarily match up with another person's definition of love. And sometimes it's better not to mention this because it can become just another delusion trap. Sometimes what people need is to get hit with a stick.

this was nicely put  But then how do you end up loving life more? 

And what is your definition of love?

[Key Elements]

7 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

@Key Elements @Snick

Don't worry!

Oh, I'm not worried. It doesn’t matter if the news is fake or not. Become a NRI of the US and you will know what I'm talking about. Watch the reaction of the mainstream. It may be different for you because you're a guy and native, but I'm not.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Key Elements

[aurum]

33 minutes ago, Orange said:

this was nicely put  But then how do you end up loving life more? 

And what is your definition of love?

You end up loving life because you've accepted everything!

Murder? That's okay to love.

Betrayal? That's okay to love.

Infidelity? That's okay to love.

An inability to love all of the above? That's also okay to love.

There is literally nothing you can't love.

Love is acceptance. It's wholeness. It's when you take something as yourself instead of pushing it away as "not you" or "not okay".

You think that love is what most people want. But it's not. Unconditional love is radical. It breaks down everything "you" want and says "everything is okay".

This is why enlightened people are often seen as rebels. This is why they're often killed. Love goes against people's personal agendas.

So here's the funny part.

People might think that many of the "selfish" acts you see come from this radical acceptance. But often they don't. They actually come from following morals!

As soon as you say "this is wrong" and you hate it, you generate more hate. 

Look at cultural wars. Both sides cannot forgive the other one because they both feel they've been so "wronged". And so they just keep fighting and killing each other.

Acceptance breeds acceptance. Hate breeds more hate.

Easy to see from a computer. Much, much more difficult to see when it's happened to YOU.

[SOUL]

Enlightened view it the way I view it, think the way I think, feel the way I feel, believe the way I believe, act the way I act, experience the way I do, perceive as I do.....that's how you can tell

Ideas that aren't like mine are deluded conditioning of illusion but my ideas are the Truth and reality!

[Orange]

3 hours ago, aurum said:

 

People might think that many of the "selfish" acts you see come from this radical acceptance. But often they don't. They actually come from following morals!

wouldn't selfishness be able to come from both radical acceptance and/or following morals? 

You could be a loving Hitler too. Since you are loving all of reality, you are loving any holocaust you generate. Still selfish. 

 

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As soon as you say "this is wrong" and you hate it, you generate more hate. 

Look at cultural wars. Both sides cannot forgive the other one because they both feel they've been so "wronged". And so they just keep fighting and killing each other.

Acceptance breeds acceptance. Hate breeds more hate.

But both acceptance and hate can breed hate at the same time no? Since you've accepted hate. You do not see it as 'wrong' therefore what does it matter if there is more of it or not.

Hate breeding hate would look like this: I hate hate, therefore I will go and destroy the ones who are hateful. 

Acceptance breeding hate would look like this: I love hate. I accept it. I am a hateful person and I love and accept myself and this hate, therefore I will go and destroy others. 

 

What i am saying is: whether you love reality and accept it. Or whether you follow a moral code. Both have the equal potential to generate hate and evil. 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Orange

[aurum]

26 minutes ago, Orange said:

wouldn't selfishness be able to come from both radical acceptance and/or following morals? 

You could be a loving Hitler too. Since you are loving all of reality, you are loving any holocaust you generate. Still selfish. 

Of course because evil acts are relative! That's basically the whole point of what I've been trying to say.

People nailed Jesus to a cross because they thought what he was doing was evil.

And don't you think Hitler was just doing what he thought was "right" as well? Of course, why else would he do it?

32 minutes ago, Orange said:

Hate breeding hate would look like this: I hate hate, therefore I will go and destroy the ones who are hateful. 

Acceptance breeding hate would look like this: I love hate. I accept it. I am a hateful person and I love and accept myself and this hate, therefore I will go and destroy others. 

This is true. But besides the fact that evil acts are still completely relative, there's nuance here you're missing.

Let's create an imaginary character named Joe.

Joe hates the world and hates people. He thinks they're evil, stupid, corrupt and take advantage of him.

If Joe resists the reality that people are evil, stupid and corrupt, it makes him more hateful because he keeps thinking it shouldn't be this way! Why does the world have to be like this! These people keep hurting me.

Further more, maybe Joe thinks he should be a nicer person. Society has told him "be a loving person", but he just can't because he's angry! So that's frustrates him even more. Now he is resisting his resistance.

 

But what would happen if we introduce Love (acceptance) into this picture?

Well, obviously there are no guarantees and everything is still relative. But here's what I generally have found:

Joe begins to introduce love to the reality that he "shouldn't" be a loving person. He begins to "love hate" as you put it. Maybe at this point he does lash out more and become outwardly hateful. He has always been hateful, but now he is just allowing it.

Damn ISIS! We should bomb them and just get rid of those assholes! Trying to take away OUR freedom #murica.

This is essentially what you're talking about. "If I'm okay with hating people, won't I just hate them more?" Well, maybe.

But what happens if Joe keeps going?

Joe now begins to "love" the reality that people are stupid, evil and corrupt. He says "it's okay that people are this way. They are just doing the best I can, the same as I am. I am not better or worse than them. In fact, they ARE me" and really means it.

What has happened? Suddenly, the evil, stupid and corrupt people aren't evil, stupid and corrupt anymore!

It was always about YOU!

These were your judgments. Your perceptions. Your desire for people and the world to act a certain way.

It had nothing to do with them. They were perfect as they were.

You have "loved evil out of existence" as Leo put it.

So what need does Joe have to go destroy these people anymore? They're perfect!

You can't hate what you accept.

If this all seems confusing, I agree. I would have never understood any of this, which is why it's often better to just go through the process yourself.

Question your morals. Question your assumptions. Question everything until you know Truth.

[Guest Annetta]

@Fidelio It arrived a few days ago, I'll be in town next week to do cleaning for them and will try it then.  I'll give a review when the bag runs out and see how it helps their coats.

[Prabhaker]

26 minutes ago, Fidelio said:

No, it is the realization that everything merely is as it is. Should be or shouldn't be are irrelevant concepts.

Everything is happening is according to laws of existence , everything is as it should be.