How Can You Tell If A Person Is Enlightened? (response To Leo's May 18 Insight)

[Gopackgo]

Law is nothing more than a human projection of what reality should be. It may feel like it has more value to society, but that's the point. Reality is what it is in total disregard for what humans project onto it. It is total arrogance to think that a mental construct like laws or morals has any effect on what actually will happen. I know it seems shocking, but reality also doesn't care about what you think is shocking. For evidence of this, consider the fact that no matter how much you try to project yourself onto reality, "bad" things still happen. The arrogance enters when you assume that reality isn't exactly as it should be. Do you see that? You are actually judging what is actually happening based on your subjective judgements. You can go your whole life thinking that reality is wrong, but it's a losing battle. It is one of the main causes of suffering. The mind hates this because when there is unconditional acceptance, you can no longer seperate yourself from others or distinguish yourself as some higher order being based on morals. You can't judge people to feel superior. When you really look at it, you have no control over what happens. Things arise, and one of those things is a thought that tries to project its selfish aims onto the world. It's called the self. The problem for the self is that acceptance happens prior to its own arising. Therefore it is in an eternal and hopeless battle with what is. Sometimes what will happen is that the self will turn back in on itself, and then it will realize that there is no control whatsoever (as just one of many insights), and then it will die. This is enlightenment. Maybe one day you will realize that every problem you perceive with reality is actually not a problem at all, and that reality is fundamental despite what thought wants to impose on it. Then your God complex thought will die and all that will be left is what is: nothing happening. Looking back on my own ongoing experience now, it is absolutely shocking the amount of arrogance that existed in this body. All it did was create a model of reality that had a huge discrepancy with actual reality, and created more suffering than I could ever explain. Thank God that the camera turned back on itself and recognized the illusion present. Life is amazing. 

[Bastian]

42 minutes ago, Dodo said:

4. Awareness is not an I identity. It is that in which all entities and appearant forms arise.

You are not going to see it as something in awareness, because it is the space for the experiences you are referring to.

Tbh your observations are completely true, there is no separate you observing experience.

Here are some contemplative questions which may get you to recognise what I'm referring to when I speak of Consciousness/Awareness 

What allows all the stream of experiences /perceptions to be? What is underneath? What is reality based on? This is the presence that cant be seen, but is always there.

I know there can be nothigness.

Peter Ralston describes it here: 

"get that you could be a snail, right now, you could be a snail, so you have no eyes, no visual perception, nor any idea of such a thing. Create this idea for yourself. What that would that be like? You're a snail, see. So, I exist, but I have no eyes, no visual and no idea of such a thing. Create a world in which that's true for you in your experience. Ehi, now, how about a single cell organism that has no perceptive organs at all, be a single cell organism, has no perceptive organs at all. What's that like? Without perceptions or any memory of perception. Without language, without perceptions or any memory of perception and without language, can you think? Try. [...] Try harder. [...] You can't think? See now, that tells you something about thinking, does it? [...]

... close your eyes. Now, what you have in your experience? Darkness is vision, you have hearing, sounds, feelings, sensations, smell. Now remove all of these. It could be done. You know, we could destroy your smell, we could destroy your ears, we could destroy your eyes, we could destroy your nervous system [...] whatever. See, it could be done. So, go ahead and do that, remove all of these, even sensations. It's possible, so imagine doing it. So you remove sight and sound and sensations and smell and taste [...] remove perceptive faculties of any kind. Now where are you? What are you?"

So, if you're saying that there is a nothingness that is the most fundamental "thing" and that precedes and follows every sensory experience and it's the essential "I", I could believe you, it makes sense.

But that would just be another "experience" (I know that technically it's not an experience) in a series of experiences.

It wouldn't be always there. When attention "arises" from that nothingness that nothingness disappear.

But if you're suggesting that nothingness is always present, I don't follow you.

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Bastian

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Mondsee said:

it kind of means that enlightenment = not giving a fuck about absolutely anything, "good" or "bad"

No. Enlightenment means absolutely nothing.

It's total freedom. If you want to give a fuck, you can! You can be an enlightened moralist. You can go preach about how everyone must be good. It would be totally groundless, but you're free do whatever the hell you want. You can go save all the poor kids in Africa, all the whales, and all the butterflies. It would be pointless and meaningless, but you can do it.

They call it "liberation" for a reason. You are not liberated unless you're free to rape and murder whoever you want. Enlightenment means total liberation.

Now... you'll say, "But why would I want to rape and murder anyone?"

Well... who knows? Let's leave our options open. Maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't. That would be a totally personal preference thing. But if you would, you wouldn't call it "wrong". Because "wrong" is an idea, nothing more.

Now... you'll say, "But wouldn't it be bad if everyone went around thinking this way?"

No! It would be meaningless, not bad. Because reality is meaningless. Regardless of what happens, it's meaningless. Meaning is a human invention.

Could you build a civilization upon this? That is irrelevant. That's an ego question.

Now... you might say, "But Leo, I don't like this. This is stupid." Well... who gives a shit what your ego likes?

Welcome to reality, where nothing you want or think matters, except in your own mind.

You're welcome to be a moralist. But only by deluding yourself. And don't think that you can be a moralist at peace. You will be deeply disturbed. You will not have Nirvana as a moralist. Because you keep insisting on delusion, keep insisting on clinging to your self, keep resisting God. And whoever resists God is a devil. So all moralists are devils. Of course they deny it. All devils deny they are devils. Which is what makes them devils. Being a devil is not wrong. It's just stupid. It's not even stupid. It just is.

God is free to do whatever it wants. And it does.

4 hours ago, Mondsee said:

I have a practical question: when enlightened, is it possible to fall in love with someone, as in a romantic couple relationship?

Because in such a case, you do prefer your partner over others, and that doesn't seem to be very compatible with total equality, but also... isn't intimacy a natural desire of the body, beyond the ego part wanting to be loved?

Everything possible before enlightenment is possible afterward. There is no difference between enlightenment and non-enlightenment in that sense.

[AlwaysBeNice]

Quote

Now... you'll say, "But why would I want to rape and murder anyone?"

Well... who knows? Let's leave our options open. Maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't. That would be a totally personal preference thing. But if you would, you wouldn't call it "wrong". Because "wrong" is an idea, nothing more.

What cause would you have to make such a thing possible, to rape and murder (except murder for self-defense)?

What reason would make it possible for you to hit yourself on the head with a hammer and for what purpose? 

[Azrael]

@Leo Gura, I like your take on this one.

The best way I can describe it is like this: Before you call yourself enlightened you have this bubble around you with that you un-/sub- and consciously fight. It's a little bit like your mom or friends that are negging you.

You have a natural tendency to express yourself in some way, for example you are a rapist. Now, as a non-psychopathic rapist you'll have doubts about your behaviour, you'll question it, try to come away from it and fight with it. This fight is you trying to argue with your bubble.

When you are enlightened, this bubble is dissolved (by itself). And through that, the fight ended. Now, don't get me wrong here, this doesn't mean that you are happy or fulfilled all the time. You'll still live the normal life with normal challenges. You'll still might feel nervous speaking in front of 100 people if you are not used to it. You still have your hopes and dreams.

It's just that this constant un-/sub- and concious fight came to an end. And then you'll find out that most of your thoughts, emotional difficulties and what not were directly in relation with that fight.

This is basically how it seems to me. But don't glue yourself to these words, it's one aspect and one metaphor to get a point across. It's not complete, it's a perspective to take it.

[Gopackgo]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

No. Enlightenment means absolutely nothing.

It's total freedom. If you want to give a fuck, you can! You can be an enlightened moralist. You can go preach about how everyone must be good. It would be totally groundless, but you're free do whatever the hell you want. You can go save all the poor kids in Africa, all the whales, and all the butterflies. It would be pointless and meaningless, but you can do it.

They call it "liberation" for a reason. You are not liberated unless you're free to rape and murder whoever you want. Enlightenment means total liberation.

Now... you'll say, "But why would I want to rape and murder anyone?"

Well... who knows? Let's leave our options open. Maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't. That would be a totally personal preference thing. But if you would, you wouldn't call it "wrong". Because "wrong" is an idea, nothing more.

Now... you'll say, "But wouldn't it be bad if everyone went around thinking this way?"

No! It would be meaningless, not bad. Because reality is meaningless. Regardless of what happens, it's meaningless. Meaning is a human invention.

Could you build a civilization upon this? That is irrelevant. That's an ego question.

Now... you might say, "But Leo, I don't like this. This is stupid." Well... who gives a shit what your ego likes?

Welcome to reality, where nothing you want or think matters, except in your own mind.

You're welcome to be a moralist. But only by deluding yourself. And don't think that you can be a moralist at peace. You will be deeply disturbed. You will not have Nirvana as a moralist. Because you keep insisting on delusion, keep insisting on clinging to your self, keep resisting God. And whoever resists God is a devil. So all moralists are devils. Of course they deny it. All devils deny they are devils. Which is what makes them devils. Being a devil is not wrong. It's just stupid. It's not even stupid. It just is.

God is free to do whatever it wants. And it does.

Everything possible before enlightenment is possible afterward. There is no difference between enlightenment and non-enlightenment in that sense.

One of my favorite Leo quotes of all time was: if you ask a rapist what they think about rape, the will say: rape is great... Let's go rape some people. 

It makes me laugh so hard everytime. 

Also, one of the most amazing things is realizing that your moral code has no effect on what you actually do. It is a useless mental construct, but it does seem to reinforce the story of "me". 

Another one is when you tell someone they don't have free will, and they say we'll if we don't have free will, why does anyone do anything? The answer might be that finding out that there is no control actually doesnt all the sudden give you the choice to do nothing. If that is what happens, you also didn't choose that. When you really look at intention or choice, and you see past the surface level, you realize that you may seemingly be doing what you're thinking, but what if you don't control your thoughts, then are you really in control of what you are doing. The simple truth is that decisions and thoughts just appear, and then the mind immediately begins making up stories or rationalizations to fit it to your story. After it makes a sufficient story for the "thinker" then it starts working on stories to communicate to family and friends, which in the end are just other walking and talking stories. That's called manipulation. You can watch this stuff happen if you direct your attention inward, and allow your attention to rise above the thought stories that are probably rejecting and discrediting this post as you read it. 

 

A man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills. 

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

What cause would you have to make such a thing possible, to rape and murder (except murder for self-defense)?

What reason would make it possible for you to hit yourself on the head with a hammer and for what purpose? 

No reason at all! You can hit yourself on the head with a hammer just for shits and giggles, just to see what it's like.

Reasons don't matter. Reasons are things egos create.

To say that "Humans have no good reasons to rape or murder each other, therefore they shouldn't", is very myopic and naive. Your mind will come up with thousands of good reasons. Even if you're enlightened.

The most enlightened people in the world are still subject to their cultural programming, social norms, ignorance of many things, and closedmindedness. Enlightenment does not make you immune to mistakes.

[Martin123]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 You can hit yourself on the head with a hammer just for shits and giggles, just to see what it's like.

INSTANT ENLIGHTENMENT TECHNIQUE

[Leo Gura]

Just think this through: If you're a male monk in a monastery and you haven't had sex in 5 years. How horny will you be? How much will your body crave sex? A LOT! A LOT! A LOT! So you'll be easily tempted to go rape someone. Even if you're enlightened.

Temptations are not really in your control.

Also, note, there are some cultures in which rape is considered perfectly normal and appropriate. For example, certain Middle Eastern or Mongol cultures. They will kidnap and rape women, and then marry them. Part of their culture. It's been done that way for thousands of years. That's how you get yourself a good wife there.

[Gopackgo]

I also meant to say that the mind lives in hypotheticals. You can watch it and see how it fitting things into the conceptual model. It's genius. It takes things that it doesn't like and basically finds situations where there are conflicts to discredit and discard. You will notice how things that seemingly are liked don't have to pass such strict scrutiny. The problem is that the model is inherently flawed because concepts only exist in thought. This is a simplistic explanation, and ironically it is a model, so obviously it's only meant to point. 

[art]

@Leo Gura How has this view changed your behavior on a practical level? For example, would you cheat on your girlfriend if a stunningly  opportunity was given to you (your 10 goddess) even though you had to keep it a secret? How has this changed your worldview, when guilt and regrets are groundless/meaningless?

[Guest Annetta]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No reason at all! You can hit yourself on the head with a hammer just for shits and giggles, just to see what it's like.

 

13 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

INSTANT ENLIGHTENMENT TECHNIQUE

Someone should test this theory, any volunteers? 

[Leo Gura]

Here's some fun reading for ya about what goes on in Tibetan monasteries:

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/06/what-lies-beneath-the-robes-are-buddhist-monasteries-suitable-places-for-children-adele-wilde-blavatsky/

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, art said:

@Leo Gura How has this view changed your behavior on a practical level? For example, would you cheat on your girlfriend if a stunningly  opportunity was given to you (your 10 goddess) even though you had to keep it a secret? How has this changed your worldview, when guilt and regrets are groundless/meaningless?

It hasn't changed anything. I've always realized that I am free to act like an animal. Doesn't mean I go around throwing my own feces at people.

The more deeply I suffer, the lighter I tend to tread in the world. But for no reason. Not because I am good or because it is right.

The more I become conscious of my own ignorance, the more tolerance I have for the ignorance of others. Murders, rapists, and thieves cannot helping doing what they do. It's not their call. It's God's call. But of course, don't tell them that! They will misunderstand it.

[art]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

It hasn't changed anything. I've always realized that I am free to act like an animal.

 

LOL. I'm so going to remember this quote when my future wife gets fat and pregnant. *myfirstpsychopathresponse

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Snick said:

Leo, in your Karma-video, you made one claim that ring very true to me. People that act on behalf of there ego, specially in extreme cases, like doing crimes, they will suffer badly even if they are not official punished for it. Selfless acts gets rewarded and creates happiness, and selfish acts creates suffering.  

That's why a rapist always has problems, even if he kow that everything is MENINGLESS, and even if he knows he wont get caught! 

Moral is definitely in the picture as something important to ponder for a good life. There are in fact moral geniuses out there, but that is something very unintuitive, just as enlightenment. It goes deep, with many layers. 

What's most important to realize is that all those "good" people who act moral and judge the rapists, terrorists, and Hitler's of the world, are going to suffering deeply for it. They incur bad karma. Because their judgments perpetuate ignorance and separation from God.

See, none of you guys here are rapists (I hope), so that's not really an important topic. But plenty of you here like to judge rapists, thinking that your are superior to them, and you're doing proper spirituality. Well, you're not. That is the practical point of this whole discussion.

Drop your superiority complex, and problem solved! Simple.

[Prabhaker]

16 minutes ago, Snick said:

specially in extreme cases, like doing crimes, they will suffer badly even if they are not official punished for it

Don't assume that criminals are worst that moralists like us. We are equally unconscious, we fantasize about doing crimes , they have potential to do the crime. A criminal can easily transform into a saint , if he wills, but we can't.  

[Leo Gura]

Be careful not to let your ego use anything I've said here to justify its selfish ways.

That would be ignorance. Nothing I've said here means anything.

[electroBeam]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You're welcome to be a moralist. But only by deluding yourself.

Most enlightened people I know are ones who strongly live up to their values. Even in the Buddhist texts. For example, the 5 precepts, or idolizing enlightened people who are compassionate, compared to enlightened people who aren't.

You can be moralistic and enlightened. That's very possible. Anything is possible. 

[Leo Gura]

@electroBeam Yes, they are deluded spiritual seekers. Dogma and concept is rampant in all spiritual teachings. As it must because spirituality cannot be transferred with words.

Which is why Zen masters tell you: when you find the Buddha, kill him.

Everything you think about spirituality when you first start the path will be proven wrong if you go deep enough. Because ego cannot understand true spirituality. Ego can only understand egoic spirituality. But we gotta start somehow. So don't worry too much about it. You just do the best you can to avoid all the ego traps and dogma.