How Can You Tell If A Person Is Enlightened? (response To Leo's May 18 Insight)

[Prabhaker]

Enlightened person like Mohammad  is full of love and compassion, and yet he has the courage to accept and fight a war. His heart is utterly non violent, yet he plunges into the fire and fury of violence when it becomes unavoidable.

Violence itself is not real, violent mind is real. It is true, you can desire to kill someone, although he cannot be killed. This is a different thing – that one cannot be killed – but if you desire to kill him then this desire is real, and this desire is sinful. Violence is not a sin, but the will to violence, a violent mind is certainly a sin. If you want to kill someone, it is enough of a sin. It is a different thing that you cannot kill, but your desire to kill is in itself sinful.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Alii said:

This alone is making me wonder what is next for humanity. Will we ever move past the bullshit? Past the religion? Past the law? Will humanity ever unite together instead of being  separated by race, land, wealth, social status?

Society needs bullshit. All of reality itself needs illusion. Illusion is the very FABRIC OF REALITY!

Not just laws, ALL OF REALITY ITSELF is bullshit! How else could something which doesn't exist come into existence but through an act of bullshittery?

Reality itself is like the ultimate Trump. It lied itself into existence.

Trump is God. What a mindfuck!

That's the depth and genius of Maya. It succeeded in creating everything from nothing. The ultimate magic trick! Hats off to your sir! You are the ultimate bullshitter. You bullshitted yourself into being. And you're damn determined to keep bullshitting your way to infinity. Infinite bullshit

Note: Be careful not to judge bullshit as "wrong" or "bad". That would be more bullshit! Reality is free to bullshit all it wants. If you don't like bullshit, that's your petty little ego's problem. God LOVES bullshit. Hence we got Trump He has been personally ordained by God to rally Americans together to hate on brown people. Oh, yeah... God LOVES hate too! Which is why we got those lovely ISIS folks. They've been ordained by God to fight Trump.

God LOVES strategy games. God LOVES drama. God LOVES boxing. God LOVES racism. God is a huge fan of Game of Thrones and House of Cards and Westworld. God's getting the popcorn ready and placing bets.

[Steph1988]

36 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Plenty of enlightened gurus and monks commit rape

Hahaha well that would be a bummer to some people here to know that.

and then

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You cannot do what Trump does and be enlightened at the same time

What about that then?

 

i like your explanations very much tho in this topic it actually clarifies some things for me.@Leo Gura

 

 

[Leo Gura]

31 minutes ago, Steph1988 said:

57 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You cannot do what Trump does and be enlightened at the same time

What about that then?

Yes, which is why there is some correlation between enlightenment and "morality". The biggest thing enlightenment precludes is stories and lying. So any actions you currently take which are based on stories and lies will be the first to drop away. But not all "evil" actions are rooted in that. Some "evil" actions are just animal instincts, like the lion who will eat you. He doesn't need a story or a self-lie. He will just honestly fucking eat you and feel please about himself. In this case, the real problem is not with the lion, but with the human who expects not to get eaten and thinks that getting eaten is wrong. The human is projecting that narrative/lie onto the lion in this case. Which is why he suffers.

True morality only comes about when you accept that nothing is moral. That's the paradox here. To be as loving as Buddha or Jesus, you MUST first accept everything I'm saying here. Then you will have a shot at being truly moral. Your morality will be absolutely groundless. It will not be justified in any way. It will totally pointless. But it will be the strongest form of morality possible. With ultimate integrity.

You cannot love unconditionally without loving EVERYTHING, including all the "evil" stuff. And the only way to love the "evil" stuff is to literally be unable to see it because it stops existing for you. You love evil out of existence. Literally.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why we all hate each other. You are too weak to love evil out of existence. Only God can do that. And you are not God.

Or are you?

Really! Are you ACTUALLY God? Or do you just tell yourself you are?

[Alii]

@Leo Gura Not sure if this is off topic, but does pain play a role here? You said earlier "Truth is VERY antithetical to self-survival". This is making question what pain really is. Getting a scratch or breaking a bone does not sound pleasant, but the more I think of it, the more I wonder what pain even is.

Can an enlightened person handle torture? Would they know whatever they're feeling is just part of everything? This whole thing is such a mind fuck Leo  death and torture are two different things, no? 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Alii

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, unknownworld said:

How do you determine who is an enlightened master and who is not? That is relative.

I am not talking about morality here! When you raise your consciousness and become enlightened - you would automatically cease to do those things because they wouldn't feel natural anymore. A rapist who becomes enlightened, doesn't stop raping because he thinks or labels it as "wrong", but just because it no longer feels good/natural to do, and he clearly sees that these actions bring suffering to himself! Enlightenment is the end of suffering.

Just as you wouldn't consciously chop your finger off, an enlightented being would not commit rape. There is no morality needed here.

You can't determine it. You can only guess. We deal with imperfect information on this path.

You assume rape doesn't feel natural or good after enlightenment. That is a dangerous assumption. Study rapists. Ask yourself, "Why do they rape in the first place?" Are they just stupid? Isn't it because it feels natural and good?

Don't assume that everyone out there has the same desires and natural inclinations as you. People are clearly different. Serial rapists find it VERY hard to stop themselves, even when they know they should stop. Some of them require castration to stop.

Ah, but if you have brain wiring or the social conditioning which compels you to chop your finger off, or to chop a child's dick tip off, you will do it precisely for that reason! An enlightened Jew will still chop off the dick tip of his child. Some might call that torture. Others wouldn't wink an eye.

Because morality is RELATIVE!!! Your culture tells you what is acceptable and unacceptable.

American cultural finds it totally acceptable -- and even highly desirable -- to chop off the tips of little boy's dicks, but totally unacceptable to chop off the clitoris of little girls. Could it get any more arbitrary?

If your logic was correct, an enlightenment person would be unable to circumcise his boy. Which is just silly. Of course he can.

Enlightened people have not only raped, but murdered people. Common practice even among Buddhists.

16 minutes ago, Alii said:

@Leo Gura Not sure if this is off topic, but does pain play a role here? You said earlier "Truth is VERY antithetical to self-survival". This is making question what pain really is. Getting a scratch or breaking a bone does not sound pleasant, but the more I think of it, the more I wonder what pain even is.

Can an enlightened person handle torture? Would they know whatever they're feeling is just part of everything? This whole thing is such a mind fuck Leo  death and torture feel like two different things anyways

Pain is something you unconsciously create. You can stop creating it, but you don't know how because you're not conscious yet of how you create it.

If a person becomes conscious of how they create pain, they can handle torture because it will not be painful to them. Literally.

But enlightenment alone will not make you conscious of how you create pain. Which is why I keep saying there is WAY MORE to mastery than enlightenment.

Mastery and moral perfection is 1000x harder than enlightenment.

[Prabhaker]

12 minutes ago, Alii said:

Can an enlightened person handle torture?

Jesus was compassionate when he was crucified. 

Mansoor, another Sufi rebel, was executed. And the manner of his execution was very cruel and brutal. One by one, his limbs, even his eyes were severed from his body. Hundreds of thousands of people had gathered to witness the event. As his hands and feet were being cut off, Mansoor was laughing and his laughter went on getting louder as his body shrunk in size. Someone from among the spectators shouted, ”Are you crazy, Mansoor? Is this a time to laugh?”

Mansoor said, ”I am really laughing at you, because you think you are killing me. You are badly mistaken, you are really killing someone else."

Edited May 24, 2017 by Prabhaker

[Leo Gura]

@unknownworld You idealize this path too much.

If you think you're going to stop inflicting suffering on people in this life by becoming enlightened, you're in for a rude awakening.

Maybe you can put an end to YOUR suffering, but not the suffering of others.

And you have much to learn about rapists.

All this stuff is vastly more complex than it first seems. As should be expected. You're dealing with a system here that is WAY beyond your mind.

[Arkandeus]

every soul is on its journey and everyone is on a certain ''enlightened level''.

certain people can be enlightened above average but not be aware of it consciously, from the past experience of their previous lives they act by instinct in enlightened behaviors and concepts.  

so don't only look at those who are into spirituality and the likes.
I went to a spiritual session with a shaman  a few weeks and I could immediately tell she was a lot more enlightened then me.

I'd compare enlightened people to energy, it was like she was acting from this deep sea, her movements were slower but much more meaningful and powerful, her expressions seemed ''slower'' too , more paced, tuned into her own emotions.  

eyebatting is a definite physical sign.
enlightened people bat their eyes much more slower then others, I've experienced it myself with my evolution, I know recognize how fast others bat their eyes compared to me, whereas before this wasn't the case.  

this is also related to greater energy and being more in the present moment.
they pay a lot more attention to the present moment so they bat their eyes slowly because they're taking in a lot of information. 
if one is less enlightened, and more into the mind and thoughts, less into the present moment the eyes bat way more faster.  
I think it is also related to relaxation, if you look at a relaxed cat you will see that its bats its eyes very slowly and very paced.  
enlightened people are by nature more relaxed and will thus bat their eyes more slowly
this is definitely the biggest sign I've seen so far.  
the greater the energy the more focused the look.  

enlightened people are also much more into their bodies and make more quirky movements, babies are the ultimate example of that

 

 

[Leo Gura]

@Snick If humans are God, and humans eat popcorn, God eats popcorn

If humans are God, and humans care about outcomes, God cares about outcomes.

[Dodo]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Snick If humans are God, and humans eat popcorn, God eats popcorn

If humans are God, and humans care about outcomes, God cares about outcomes.

Nice! I had this "insight" while vaping and posted on here but didn't get much cred! God Vapes confirmed!

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, unknownworld said:

You will consciously cease to inflict suffering on to others, as you will no longer be serving your ego. What exactly do you not agree with here?

It is not complex as you think. The mind likes to make it complex, when the truth is right in front of your nose.  

Well, for starters, your whole model of suffering is wrong. You're speaking about it as through someone is inflicting suffering on you. When in fact suffering is an activity you do.

Buddha himself could not stop inflicting suffering on others because "suffering of the other" is not in the Buddha's control, but occurring in the mind of the unenlightened other, caused by the other's ignorance, not by Buddha's actions.

You know how much suffering an enlightened master will cause in the world? Tons! Because to the ignorant, the kindest gesture of love will be interpreted as pure evil and cause them much suffering.

Have you noticed that the most loving people get killed the quickest? Why is that you think? Because they spread love, or because they spread suffering?

To the ignorant, is love not suffering? Isn't that why you suffer from loving "evil"?

[Orange]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

 

You cannot love unconditionally without loving EVERYTHING, including all the "evil" stuff. And the only way to love the "evil" stuff is to literally be unable to see it because it stops existing for you. You love evil out of existence. Literally.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why we all hate each other. You are too weak to love evil out of existence. Only God can do that. You are not God. Or are you?

This is too true.. 

I think this is why I will forever stick to hating evil. Because I am an egoic bitch

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

But this does not by any means mean that you will not inflict damage to people just by your very existence. To exist, you must create collateral damage. The only question is, how much? The greatest Buddha still creates collateral damage just by breathing.

why do you say a human creates collateral damage just by breathing? 

Why does our very existence inflict damage? 

[Prabhaker]

1 minute ago, unknownworld said:

You will consciously cease to inflict suffering on to others, as you will no longer be serving your ego.

Life is very mysterious , we divide things into good and evil. Sometimes we have to choose from greater evil and lesser evil.

Even a person like Jesus whipped money changers in Jewish temple.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Orange said:

why do you say a human creates collateral damage just by breathing? 

Why does our very existence inflict damage?

All change creates change. You cannot have motion without destruction. This is a rock-bottom existential fact. To create one phenomena another must be destroyed. To create a human the energy and atoms must come from somewhere. They come from the destruction of other things.

Every time you sit on a chair, your ass squashes and kills thousands of bacteria and cells. You just happen to not give a shit about them.

To live you must kill thousands of plants and animals. You must kill billions of viruses and bacteria. You must pollute the external environment with your waste, trash, CO2, sweat, urine, etc. You must occupy physical space which is taken away from other creatures and immaterial objects. Everything you do requires material resources which only come from the destruction of your environment. And I haven't even started to enumerate the footprint of humanity as a whole on the environment!

#CycleOfLife

Have you ever taken a long road trip in your car? Then ever look at your bumper and windshield? How many insects did that road trip kill? 10? 30? 100? How many insects will you have killed by the time you're dead? Could you even count them?

But of course all of this is conveniently ignored by the ego's relentless drive for self-survival. "Me at all costs!"

Even for one atom to come into existence, another one must be destroyed or dislodged. You cannot move your hand through the air without destroying that particular configuration of the air. Now, you will say, "But who cares? That's just air!" Well, using that same logic, who cares if you're destroyed? That's just human flesh. It's no more valuable than a configuration of air molecules. The only one who it's valuable to, is you (well, and maybe your Mom, IF she's a good Mom )

You see how your perspective shapes absolutely everything? You are utterly biased toward your own selfish needs. You would destroy a configuration of air molecules without a second thought just by waving your ugly hands around. How callous of you!

When you realize that there is no self, that there are no who's in existence, you will realize that you are no more important than a configuration of air molecules. Now that would be true morality. Now you're able to really see. Now you can finally be humble and tread the Earth lightly.

[Orange]

im curious has anyone here ever been able to love unconditionally?

 

[Pierre]

Maybe a little Metaphysics of Quality will help clear up the mud here.

Levels of evolution (inorganic/biological/social/intellectual/Dynamic) have different, and in general conflicting, patterns of value. What is good at a biological level is often evil at a social level, etc. What is immoral is when a lower level tries to dominate or suppress a higher level. 

[Leo Gura]

@Pierre No. That cannot help at all. Value doesn't exist. Neither does hierarchy.

Nonduality means:

• No values
• No heirarchies
• No parts
• No meanings
• No good/evil
• No stories
• No levels of importance
• No immorality

It's utterly groundless. To infinity.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, unknownworld said:

That is not what I meant by suffering here.   I was also referring mostly to physical pain. An enlightened master would not consciously rape, or put others in insane amounts of pain(intentionally). There are also various degrees of suffering. Yes you can't stop someone suffering psychologically, but you will not intentionally inflict anymore damage, while knowing it will bring suffering. 

Where did you get the fact that the kindest gesture of love would bring suffering? In the cases where it's a threat to the ego, there is suffering, but the ego dissolves, because dark cannot exist where there is a light. You are underestimating the power of love.

Loving people get killed the quickest? Where are you getting all of this from?  Sure there were some cases, but that's all, and not enough to make that conclusion.

Ah... but physical pain is not so easy to distinguish. If I draw a cartoon of Mohammad, that will cause a lot of suffering to some people in the world, and it will outrage some more than physical pain.

Zen master's inflict a lot of physical pain on their students. A Zen master wouldn't hesitate to slap you hard across the face just to disprove your point.

Some of the most loving people where assassinated or killed because their love caused deep suffering for those unenlightened folks who couldn't handle it. These loving people were literally seen as evil.

You are making all sorts of distinctions here between physical vs psychological suffering which are totally arbitrary and of little importance. The vast majority of suffering is psychological, not physical. But even physical suffering you will create plenty of. You will crush thousands of insects with your shoes.

The problem is that you're assuming there is some kind of objective standard for what is and isn't evil. Like there is a line drawn somewhere which says that physical pain is evil, therefore enlightened people will not do it. But there is no such line. The whole notion makes no sense at all. You're not yet aware that that line only exists as part of your ego, and nowhere else.

[Pierre]

 

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Pierre No. That cannot help at all. Value doesn't exist. Neither does hierarchy.

Nonduality means:

• No values
• No heirarchies
• No parts
• No meanings
• No good/evil
• No stories
• No levels of importance
• No immorality

It's utterly groundless. To infinity.

@Leo Gura That's called nihilism. Nothing spiritual there.