Ego?

[arjuna]

@tyy i have looked in to that book a long time ago, introduced by a friend of mine. don't get me wrong. i had the privilege to experience "it", "god", "enlightenmend", Brahman, infinite reality or whatever we can not call "it" spontanious an even longer time ago. I know ego-death from first hand experience. The problem i see with a theoretical approach a.e. through books, that it can be understood to a certain level intellectualy BUT it is impossible to "HIT THE POINT" through it. This paradoxon can have the ability to create a sort of meta-delusion.

Everytime when i hear people talk about it coming from intellectual understanding, they often get themselves in paradox sentences. "the ego is real and unreal". the problem with that is, that language structures the mind and intellect and paradox thinking CAN lead to shizophrenic mindsets.

"Infinity" or "Brahman" is beyond intellect, beyond language, beyond "duality". It is impossible to structure it in a dual way. I even would go so far to say, that EVERY word about it is illusion. So i am highly critical about any books regarding non-duality. there may be good intentions behind it, but i have yet to see someone, reaching a true non-dual state of mind through it. my experience is rather the opposite and i have seen lots of people loose their minds through it. not in a positive way.

My personal conclusion to deal with ego is to be aware what it is and that "they" are mere constructs. As long as i am living in a "world" built and constructed by words and meaning, trying to "kill" or "overcome" the ego through other words is per definition not possible. accepting this "reality" or "fact" is far more healthier and keeps me grounded. This reality is not parted from ultimate reality in reality one could see it as an evolutionary step to experience itself through us/itself. in this regard i am a monist, not dualist. duality itself is a construct. imo there is no need to "transcend" or "overcome" the ego, just be aware what it is and don't identify totally with it.

I opened this topic to get a sense of how people here see this and look if i can engage in discussion and/or expansion of my horizon.

english is not my mothertongue so i hope my words made a little sense.

 

[tyy]

@arjuna So, being less experienced, in what ways did you deepen your awareness of this and distance your true self from the identity? Just meditation?

[tyy]

@arjuna "When you observe the ego in yourself, you are beginning to go beyond it. Don't take the ego too seriously."

"All you need to know and observe in yourself is this: whenever you feel superior or inferior to anyone, that's the ego in you."

Both of those are from that book I suggested. I can understand (as much as possible without having any ego death experiences) your point about language not being able to hit the nail on the head. These observation practices are valuable too though, along with meditation?

[arjuna]

17 hours ago, tyy said:

@arjuna So, being less experienced, in what ways did you deepen your awareness of this and distance your true self from the identity? Just meditation?

 

@tyy  When i was 12 years old, i visited the "tantra-gallery" in our town. it was an "esoteric" book store. in the most discrete corner of the store, i found books concerning magick, most of them from aleister crowley and the golden dawn order. i read those books with great interest, i thought i would learn how to cast fireballs and become a great magician...  

But it was "only" about things i didn't understand at the time and meditation and visualisation techniques. but i didnt let go and tried these techniques and tried to understand what the books were talking about. Now magick has a very different approach to ego and meditation then as example buddhism or spirituality ( a word i don't understand till today...) . Later i found my home in chaos magick, because there were no specific paradigms attached to it or complicated rituals etc.

when i became 18 i experimented with various drugs and psychedelics. the "breakthrough" was spontaniously, without drugs, just sitting there and contemplating on some things when i noticed, that i was going through an "elevator" that didnt stop. i think i just made my mind ready somehow since i was a kid. i never experienced it again, not through drugs or meditation or yoga techniques. it changed my life.

The thing is, that through my studies of magickal practices, my "way" is mostly totally contrary to ways described in esoteric books. i see the ego as a tool, hindrance and companion. i would rather not tell anyone to follow in my footsteps, because sanity and insanity are sometimes very near to each other and it's not a cozy, warm and enjoyable way. but very interesting! 

i don't distance my self from identity because they are not the same and never will be the same. it's more to recognise that they are different but accept and love both. this sentence already implies a third self, that meta-positions itself over the self and the ego. this is mind-boggling and since i am "pragmatic" in nature, not usefull. it just is.

my theory is, that this what we call intuition is the ability to distinguish between the infinite self and wishfull thinking, the infinite self, devoid from time-space continuity, knowing everything. i am training to listen, to trust and to act according to that what i perceive as intuition. the trick is to not get fooled from wishfull thinking. but again, this is what i think it is, for someone else it may not be true. tomorrow it may not be true for myself. and that leads to my next thing that keeps me not-attached. - paradigm shifting.

10 years ago i read about this - typical for chaos magick - to try to swap and embrace opposite paradigms, to an extend near full-identification.

how is it to see the world through a christians eye. atheist, pantheist. then - scientific-atheistic paradigm. psychological, energetical, cybernetic paradigm etc. it's very hard to give up world views and, not only intellectually or abstract, change into another world view untill you ARE talking like them, acting like them ARE them. and then one day beeing remembered about the descision i made to swap and come back, integrate - metaplane - and choose the next paradigm and go diving. Drugs and psychedelika would be endangering the stability of those experiences, so i stop with them for several years i may be "in" that paradigm.

maybe in meta-state, LSD to contemplate and integrate befor the next "dive". I fully embrace the idea of ultimate reality or in chaos-paradigm, the chaos "made" us to experience and evolve. NOT as many understand it, that this plane of existence is somewhat of a FALL! i think, christian-sin-thinking combined with the garden of eden story intermixed, making it something "evil" to overcome. i dont think so. i think ONE-ness could be, where we go when leaving this body or dying. But now i am here, and i want to create and explore the possibility of the brain WITH the identity construct, what it can do. True, it is illusionary in nature, meaning, it is not infinite and every construct here will disolve and take another form. but to consciously play with this creative ability to be able to form and experience realities is interesting, pleasurable and expands knowledge and wisdom. something not achievable in the state of ONE-ness or brahman.

it comes with the danger of a collective, illusionary split-personality, projected as "God" and "Devil", causing, when projected unconsciously a lot of harm and suffering. Now this step in evolution is to understand that god and devil is in us, taking individual responsability, constructing a good world to live in. i think this can be achieved collectively, through harmonizing the ego with the self, ending duality on this plane of existence. not by going back from where we came from. that would be regression.

 "When you observe the ego in yourself, you are beginning to go beyond it. Don't take the ego too seriously."

As you may understand from my wall of text. i can understand on a way, what he is saying here... on the same time, i dont understand where it should lead me. these are words from someone else and they are maybe true, maybe not.

"All you need to know and observe in yourself is this: whenever you feel superior or inferior to anyone, that's the ego in you."

yes, i agree. but what's next? what should it lead to? that i am not allowed to feel superiour or inferior? so yes! it is the ego. so what? what does it mean to state this sentence? what are the consequences from it? these would be my questions. questions, that a book should not answer. 

"These observation practices are valuable too though, along with meditation?"

I don't know. Maybe it is for you, maybe it isn't. Don't listen to what i say, i am just a foolish idiot, stumbling through existence with an insane grin on my face... 

[Nahm]

@arjuna from my experience you can either be building momentum of separation, or building momentum of connection. I think of the ego as the path of separation in regards to decisions, thinking, and how to treat others. 

[arjuna]

@Nahm Interesting. Just to recap/check if i got it right: According to your experience the involvement of ego always separates thinking, separates decisions and separates how i treat others. Do you mean "separation" in the sense of "sorting out" or splitting, like if i involve ego in a descision it will put me in doubt? related to treating others, that involvement of ego separates me from others instead of connecting?

[abrakamowse]

There's an appearance of permanence that is not real, hence it's an illusion.

Illusion means that things are not what they seem. Their true nature is not what we think it is. What is the nature of a tree? The leaves? The trunk? Everything is the tree but it has no nature, there's no tree nature. It's really empty and our mind call it a "tree".

[abrakamowse]

8 hours ago, arjuna said:

my theory is, that this what we call intuition is the ability to distinguish between the infinite self and wishfull thinking, the infinite self, devoid from time-space continuity, knowing everything

That's what Buddhist call "discrimination". And they call the infinite self buddhi and the lower self jiva. The Buddhi is a part of the ego that is closer to the light, to the absolute and the jiva is more attached to material things and it is the dark side of the ego, it is farther from the light source that is you.

[arjuna]

@abrakamowse Do i undersand this right? language or spoken words are soundwaves, atoms pushed around stimulating the ear and put toghether to structured words and sounds in the brain. one could say that words/language is an illusion because in reality it's just atoms pushed around and even atoms are just quantum possibilities, manifested through observation. Is this what you mean by "Illusion"?

[abrakamowse]

3 minutes ago, arjuna said:

@abrakamowse Do i undersand this right? language or spoken words are soundwaves, atoms pushed around stimulating the ear and put toghether to structured words and sounds in the brain. one could say that words/language is an illusion because in reality it's just atoms pushed around and even atoms are just quantum possibilities, manifested through observation. Is this what you mean by "Illusion"?

Exactly... the non dual teachers says the reality, let's call it the ultimate truth... is that nothing is happening.

 

Note: The "illusion" allows the world to be "created"

Edited May 19, 2017 by abrakamowse

[arjuna]

3 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

That's what Buddhist call "discrimination". And they call the infinite self buddhi and the lower self jiva. The Buddhi is a part of the ego that is closer to the light, to the absolute and the jiva is more attached to material things and it is the dark side of the ego, it is farther from the light source that is you.

@abrakamowse  "it is farther from the light source that is you." The "you" would be paramatman?

[abrakamowse]

1 minute ago, arjuna said:

@abrakamowse  "it is farther from the light source that is you." The "you" would be paramatman?

Yes! You are it

[arjuna]

@abrakamowse Note: The "illusion" allows the world to be "created" 

agreed. imo "creation" takes place through observation and structurize through words. Now... where i think i differ from buddhists is the conclusion. yes, suffering is happening. but also joy. yes, suffering and joy are also illusions in the sense that they are not eternal. brahman is eternal joy (these words are not it) 

Is it a "fall"? or is the one-ness "creating" the multiple "worlds" to individualize and grow? I think it is evolution and to dance in it and make conscious "creations" is fun! I know their nature but even after having the privilege to have experienced this brahman there is a "reason" i am in my body. why go back so quickly?

[arjuna]

words are so difficult. i know that brahman can not "grow" because it just is. touched and untouched, everything and nothing. still "we" are from it, one and separated at the same time.

[arjuna]

It's like the ultimate goal, holy grail of spiritualism is to separate from the structurized world. but why? could there be a mis-understanding? 

I saw one picture that made me think and change my mind. Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva descending into Manu. not the other way round. "gods" are concepts, ideals bt devoid of "realness" in the sense of "real" of our multidimensional, structured world with time, action reaction. could it be that we, manu, are the manifested concept of these ideals/gods/demons/ideas?

[abrakamowse]

19 minutes ago, arjuna said:

Now... where i think i differ from buddhists is the conclusion. yes, suffering is happening. but also joy. yes, suffering and joy are also illusions in the sense that they are not eternal. brahman is eternal joy (these words are not it) 

What they say is that we create suffering, by giving value to the things of the world. Like a car. If I buy a car, I am happy. If I can't buy a car I am unhappy. The car doesn't have happiness, there's no happiness or unhappiness in the car. We superimpose happiness because we think that having the car will give us happiness. The only happiness is in the Brahman, that's why when we buy or get things, objects, car, houses, a good job, a family, a beautiful woman/handsome man etc... in fact we are seeking that eternal joy that is you, the true and only self.

 

Quote

 

Is it a "fall"? or is the one-ness "creating" the multiple "worlds" to individualize and grow? I think it is evolution and to dance in it and make conscious "creations" is fun! I know their nature but even after having the privilege to have experienced this brahman there is a "reason" i am in my body. why go back so quickly?

 

 

 

If you think about it (thought can't never grasp the absolute, but I will try) if there's something, it must come from nothing. There's should be nothing there to something appear. That's why something without any concept, as nothing or something, something that is outside of space, time, etc... can "create" or make the world appear. 

I don't think we are in a body. Because our identity can't be in the body. You know who you are, not because of what you think you are, you know it because of what you are not. What is left is you. You are not your body, or senses, or thoughts, etc....

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by abrakamowse

[Leo Gura]

The false identification you have of being a human being, or a physical being, or a separate entity, or a formed object of any kind, is to be overcome, yes. In the same way that if you believed and behaved like your were a dog, or Napoleon, we would say, that's a misguided notion (bordering on insanity) which must be overcome.

[arjuna]

@abrakamowse " if there's something, it must come from nothing." The moment i "came back" from this "experience" and got back my ego, language and mind i knew that the smallest dot or letter i utter to try to describe brahman IS NOT brahman. even the word "brahman" is not brahman. it just is. the word that is the farthest away from it is "nothing". maybe it is again the problem, that this word no-thing in its original meaning and etymos of sanskrit is not translatable.

"being" "in" the body appears to be objective real. that i AM not my body is clear. "knowing" what i am is an intellectual process and imo is not possible to really get brahman bec. intellect again works through words. words are not it. does it make sense then to seek out brahman? is it even possible to "seek" it? isn't it like a child wanting to go back in the belly of its mother? avoiding the pain of the "real" world?

[arjuna]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The false identification you have of being a human being, or a physical being, or a separate entity, or a formed object of any kind, is to be overcome, yes. In the same way that if you believed and behaved like your were a dog, we would say, that's a misguided notion which must be overcome.

@Leo Gura we established that "illusion" is the construction of atoms being there to a form and a name like "tree". does that mean that the tree is not to be experienced?

who says that the "false" identification of "being" a human being is to be overcomed?

And why is this "material" world/multiverse there in the first place? to overcome it?

[abrakamowse]

5 minutes ago, arjuna said:

@abrakamowse " if there's something, it must come from nothing." The moment i "came back" from this "experience" and got back my ego, language and mind i knew that the smallest dot or letter i utter to try to describe brahman IS NOT brahman. even the word "brahman" is not brahman. it just is. the word that is the farthest away from it is "nothing". maybe it is again the problem, that this word no-thing in its original meaning and etymos of sanskrit is not translatable.

"being" "in" the body appears to be objective real. that i AM not my body is clear. "knowing" what i am is an intellectual process and imo is not possible to really get brahman bec. intellect again works through words. words are not it. does it make sense then to seek out brahman? is it even possible to "seek" it? isn't it like a child wanting to go back in the belly of its mother? avoiding the pain of the "real" world?

That's difficult to give a response. Because as you said that "nothing" is a concept and "not a thing" cannot be grasped by the mind, it becomes an object. Same thing happens with the idea of seeking our real identity.

 

 

You have to seek it without seeking it... hhehe... that's why Zen call it to cross the "gateless gate" por "pathless path". I think that's were intuition comes into account. And intuition is the way our true self "talks" through silence.

This is from my experience, I am still working on understanding all this really.

:-)

Edited May 19, 2017 by abrakamowse