Toxic Vs. Healthy Masculinity

[BlessedLion]

I was inspired to make a video on this topic as it seems so popular and debated today. 

Let's discuss, what do you guys think and feel toxic vs healthy masculinity is?
 

 

[Sugarcoat]

Toxic masculinity is insecure masculinity at its root, it’s masculinity that feels threatened

[Tenebroso]

There is no such thing as toxic masculinity or healthy masculinity. For such a dichotomy to exist there need to be an objective moral standard we collectively adhere to. For any of us to exist discussing ideas on a forum means we are descendants of amoral, ruthless men who for millennia out competed and out thought other men for the right to pass on their genes to the next generation. This is simply nature.

My maternal grandfather brutally murdered Japanese soldiers during world war 2 then went on to have seven daughters including my mother. Was his capacity to kill toxic or was it necessary to stop Imperial Japan rampaging across south east-asia committing crimes against humanity.

Masculinity contrary to popular belief is as nuanced and complicated as femininity. The best things about men; physical strength, drive, competition and organization.........inevitably can have negative manifestations. However, you can't repress the negative parts without damaging the positive expressions of masculinity. In other words masculinity has to be accepted in its entirety including the ugly, uncomfortable parts. The moral righteousness of people who use the term toxic masculinity only exposes their own discomfort with their own ugly, animalistic nature which we all have.

A common pattern I have noticed among people who use the term toxic masculinity is that they are hypocrites and projecting. The male feminist who wants to prove he was of the kind, good, emotionally intelligent men by demonizing other men for being toxic often turns out to be an abuser himself. Women who scream about toxic masculinity are the one dating violent bad boys, narcissistic fuckboys.

They are so confused by their own nature that they vilify good men to rationalize their attraction towards what they claim to hate. Men who have never harmed, abused or manipulated a woman are treated with more disgust and venom than the men who actually harm women. Why? because women actually love toxic masculinity. The men living from their most toxic side are not the ones suffering from the male loneliness crisis.

There is no incentive to be a so called good man because following the current discourse, the goalpost for meeting the required standard to be a healthy man can always be raised higher and higher. You are never good enough and while you trying to become this enlightened, emotionally intelligent, kind saint..... women are flocking to men who embody the exact opposite of these qualities.

Men should do as they please. Masculinity does not mean protecting, providing, serving, building etc if that is not what you genuinely desire or want to do. True masculinity if there is such thing is living according to your own instinct, intuitions and desires regardless of any flimsy, subjective morality imposed by hypocrites who don't practice what they preach. The most important thing however, is taking full responsibility for the path you take. That is above everything.

Edited yesterday at 04:57 PM by Tenebroso

[aurum]

5 minutes ago, Tenebroso said:

The best things about men; physical strength, drive, competition, organization.....inevitably can have negative manifestations, you can't repress the negative parts without damaging the positive expressions of masculinity. In other words masculinity has to be accepted in its entirety including the ugly, uncomfortable parts.

Men can still evolve as society evolves.

You don't have to accept everything about traditional masculinity. 

[Tenebroso]

2 minutes ago, aurum said:

Men can still evolve as society evolves.

You don't have to accept everything about traditional masculinity. 

Society is not evolving. Society is lying to itself. Actually this so called evolving only has revealed the dark shadow of men and especially women more. I am not very traditionally masculine myself but people who talk like this to be blunt are almost always full of shit. 

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Tenebroso said:

Society is not evolving. Society is lying to itself. Actually this so called evolving only has revealed the dark shadow of men and especially women more. I am not very traditionally masculine myself but people who talk like this to be blunt are almost always full of shit. 

The evolution of society can sometimes be overstated, yes.

But the issue is that society is still evolving. And it’s correct to adapt to that evolution.

In practice, a perspective of “men don’t need to evolve” will be used to justify all kinds of toxic behavior. Like a romantic partner who refuses to take feedback.

It’s wiser to allow for the need of evolution.

[BlessedLion]

6 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Toxic masculinity is insecure masculinity at its root, it’s masculinity that feels threatened

For sure. Most of the men sampled in the video are deeply insecure 

[BlessedLion]

6 hours ago, Tenebroso said:

My maternal grandfather brutally murdered Japanese soldiers during world war 2 then went on to have seven daughters including my mother. Was his capacity to kill toxic or was it necessary to stop Imperial Japan rampaging across south east-asia committing crimes against humanity.

I think this is admirable actually. He was fighting for his values to the death. Japan and Germany were the aggressors in that war. 
 

I see what you are saying and it’s an interesting perspective. At the highest level, there is no duality (toxic vs healthy) but relatively there are values that are more “conscious” relative to others. 
 

Id label toxic masculinity as ego, selfishness, gain at expense of others, exploitation, competition, pride, and abuse (Tate, Bilzerian, Travis Scott, Tai Lopez)

 

Whole healthy masculinity is helping others, empowering others, serving love and consciousness, being honest and having integrity (Ralston, Wilber, many Yogis, and John Wooden) 

 

 

[BlessedLion]

6 hours ago, Tenebroso said:

There is no incentive to be a so called good man because following the current discourse, the goalpost for meeting the required standard to be a healthy man can always be raised higher and higher. You are never good enough and while you trying to become this enlightened, emotionally intelligent, kind saint..... women are flocking to men who embody the exact opposite of these qualities.

Men should do as they please. Masculinity does not mean protecting, providing, serving, building etc if that is not what you genuinely desire or want to do. True masculinity if there is such thing is living according to your own instinct, intuitions and desires regardless of any flimsy, subjective morality imposed by hypocrites who don't practice what they preach. The most important thing however, is taking full responsibility for the path you take. That is above everything.

So you use what women find attractive as your moral code and how you should evaluate what’s acceptable behavior? Sure, if that’s your view than be like Andrew Tate and exploit them at all costs for sex. Have fun. 
 

It’s true that following a code of conduct like honor, discipline, and service isn’t flashy and might not get female attention, but it’s more about how you feel about yourself and being able to look in the mirror with a sense of satisfaction. 
 

Also the women who chase toxic guys are usually pretty shallow and immature, there are also high conscious women who are much more satisfying and nurturing to be around. 
 

I do agree with you regarding taking full responsibility for our paths as men, and not doing things because we feel we “should” or there is pressure. 
 

But I definitely think there are toxic men living by low values and standards and others (much more rare) living by admirable principles. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@BlessedLion good topic! 

Positive masculinity needs to be celebrated more 🙏

The topic is very much entwined with power. Men have power over women in the physical domain. The concept of this is lost on most men though, and is evident in their shock at how much fear around this women have. This fear is feminities undercurrent, and lies at the heart of connection to the feminine.

I genuinely feel most of what positive masculinity represents, is a man who is fit to wield this power. Masculinity needs to be worthy to have this power, as the burden of responsibility is so great. 

Unfortunately, it usually takes a man to enter into his later phases of age and life to be worthy. Not always, but usually ☺️

 

[aurum]

7 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Toxic masculinity is insecure masculinity at its root, it’s masculinity that feels threatened

This is somewhat of a moot point though. The function of masculinity is to protect against threats.

A better frame would be to ask whether it's adaptive or not.

[Sugarcoat]

18 minutes ago, aurum said:

This is somewhat of a moot point though. The function of masculinity is to protect against threats.

A better frame would be to ask whether it's adaptive or not.

I didn’t think it through much main point was just that any toxic masculinity is usually rooted in insecurity it’s very basic and maybe obvious 

[aurum]

7 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

I didn’t think it through much main point was just that any toxic masculinity is usually rooted in insecurity it’s very basic and maybe obvious 

Yes, your point is right.