Thinking place

[Salvijus]

6 minutes ago, CoolDreamThanks said:

I guess you could call it awareness, but it's not a personal awareness that you are used to - this ":I am" awareness. It's just non-duality seeing itself as non-duality without a separate individual. Even that statement was too dualistic - non-duality doesn't see itself, it just IS. It's not the I am who see's this -- you go beyond the I am to a place beyond consciousness and then you see that consciousness was illusory. But there's no you there. I don't know what to call that beyond place - there's no entity there - it's pure non-duality, awareness is too dualistic of a word I think. I guess you need to listen to Jim Newman or other teachers who are good at communicating these concepts. I just saw it and don't yet know how to conceptualize this to appeal to the separate self. The separate self probably can't understand this, that's where the struggle is coming from, it can't go beyond the I am, beyond consciousness. Awareness is all it knows, so it doesn't make sense for it that there's a "place" beyond awareness. 
 

I see, words can be confusing when different people use them in different ways. But I think i follow what you're saying. I'm gonna go to sleep 😴. 

🙏 Sudiev. 

[CoolDreamThanks]

You know how in your dreams at night you think you are this separate individual making choices and doing things, but when you wake up you see that you were just apart of this dream and it was all this one big happening without anyone in control? The control and the separate self was an illusion within the dream that was perfectly non-dual, a happening without parts, those parts were illusory, it was just one thing appearing in various images and forms and feelings and thoughts, but it wasn't happening to you as an individual and there was no individual, the individual was a part of the dream. The individual was never in control -- he was apart of this mysterious happening that seemed dualistic only when you were asleep.  That's what is happening now. 

[CoolDreamThanks]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

I see, words can be confusing when different people use them in different ways. But I think i follow what you're saying. I'm gonna go to sleep 😴. 

🙏 Sudiev. 

Labanakt 

[Salvijus]

2 minutes ago, CoolDreamThanks said:

You know how in your dreams at night you think you are this separate individual making choices and doing things, but when you wake up you see that you were just apart of this dream and it was all this one big happening without anyone in control? The control and the separate self was an illusion within the dream that was perfectly non-dual, a happening without parts, those parts were illusory, it was just one thing appearing in various images and forms and feelings and thoughts, but it wasn't happening to you as an individual and there was no individual, the individual was a part of the dream. The individual was never in control -- he was apart of this mysterious happening that seemed dualistic only when you were asleep.  That's what is happening now. 

I follow what you're saying, yea, that was a good analogy. 

[CoolDreamThanks]

Jim Newman:

The individual has never, would never, and could never do anything to rid itself of itself or uncover the reality of itself or what is.

What effect does working with the consequence of separation have? Spirituality and the spiritual path do have effects in the experience of the individual. They can make that experience better or worse (both only temporarily) and more or less functional. Just as therapy can. Spirituality bases its function on the assumption of there being something wrong with the person — the seeker. Which is in agreement with the assumptions the person has about itself, that there is something wrong with it. Spiritual teachings confirm this false assumption and tells the individual, what they can, could or should do, to be a better person, to find what is looked for. None of these approaches recognisze the real cause of the discontent: the experience of separation, the individual.
 

There is nothing missing and no need to find anything. When the dream ends, no one wakes up. The dream was the dreamers only reality. When it ends, there is no one left to wake up.
 

Non dualism has no judgment, as it does not recognize the free will (the individual experiences itself to have) as real. So there is no one to be responsible. Free will and personal responsibility are simply aspects of the illusory experience of the individual. This is a description, pointing out common misunderstandings, which arise because the suggestions and descriptions of non dualism are so foreign to the logic which arises out of the experience that “I am real” and “I do everything”.
 

Even the idea of “being no one” can be falsely understood as having to do with a real experience or real knowing. Real experience or real knowing are consequences of the illusory individual. Non dualism points to the unknowing emptiness, appearing as what is, which is beyond experience and knowing.

There is nothing to find, except “there is nothing to find”, which is never the result of seeking. There is no value in seeking, contrary to the seekers experience and value system.

Non dualism points to the completeness which is beyond words or understanding. It points to the wholeness, which is not effected by the experience of separation. It points to the unconditional love, which is already everything. It points to the unbounded absolute freedom, which is so free, it can appear as separation seeking freedom. There is only what is — everything — never anything else and this everything is the absolute freedom longed for already.

 

My comment: 

There is so much freedom in his words. 

I love that he is absolutely direct, which is the opposite of how ACIM is written. 

Such a breath of fresh air. 

[CoolDreamThanks]

 

[CoolDreamThanks]

NON DUALISM turns the way one normally thinks of enlightenment and spirituality on its head. Non Duality is a revolution. The simplicity of the message is absolutely undeniable. It reveals, that the search for enlightenment is in itself the continuation and confirmation of the separation. - Jim Newman

boom haha

[CoolDreamThanks]

Hm, so with this realisation the seeking should naturally relax, perhaps gradually. Not because it’s done by you, just because it’s seen that there is no one doing and nothing to do, this is it, nothing to get or attain or understand in the future

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, CoolDreamThanks said:

Hm, so with this realisation the seeking should naturally relax, perhaps gradually. Not because it’s done by you, just because it’s seen that there is no one doing and nothing to do, this is it, nothing to get or attain or understand in the future

It sounds like if the doing were to stop, you'd be in a state of perfect presence and there would be no ego left, just a nondual experience of everything. 

[CoolDreamThanks]

12 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

It sounds like if the doing were to stop, you'd be in a state of perfect presence and there would be no ego left, just a nondual experience of everything. 

I'm not even sure if anything has to change—it's already a nondual experience of everything; there was just a belief that something else was happening, and that caused seeking energy to appear. When it's seen that nothing has to change and this is already it, then that's already a nondual experience of everything, as it always was, even the seeker was nonduality appearing as separation, because it can, since it's completely free to be anything. 

[Salvijus]

7 minutes ago, CoolDreamThanks said:

I'm not even sure if anything has to change-it's already a nondual experience of everything; there was just a belief that something else was happening, and that caused seeking energy to appear. When it's seen that nothing has to change and this is already it, then that's already a nondual experience of everything, as it always was, even the seeker was nonduality appearing as separation, because it can, since it's completely free to be anything. 

If seeking continues, doesn't that mean that the realization of the futility of seeking hasn't sinked in yet? The realization that seeking is futile would result in the end of seeking would make sense imo. 

Edited 7 hours ago by Salvijus

[CoolDreamThanks]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

If seeking continues, doesn't that mean that the realization of the futility of seeking hasn't sinked in yet? The realization that seeking is futile would result in the end of seeking would make sense imo. 

At least in me right now, it feels like both. There's a realization that this is just it; there's nothing more to attain - enlightenment is here and now, but there are still old seeking patterns in the psyche that have to fizzle out. Not enlightenment-related seeking patterns, but more worldly ones. Seeking for a partner or seeking enlightenment is the same, just seeking energy appearing and contracting into an individual, separate entity. 

I heard Lisa Cairns talk about seeking patterns coming up for many years after the shift into non-duality. It feels like that's how it will go down here as well. There's just no one obstructing those from coming up - the seeking energy came up, and that's just what's happening; that's still non-duality appearing as seeking energy. 

[CoolDreamThanks]

Lisa said that one time she was invited to speak at an event, and she just felt like cursing the whole time, so for like half an hour or so, she was sitting on the stage and just saying: shit, cu**, asshole, motherfucker, and so on. Hahaha love that 

[Salvijus]

8 minutes ago, CoolDreamThanks said:

There's just no one obstructing those from coming up - the seeking energy came up, and that's just what's happening

What do you think causes this seeking energy to come up? 

[Salvijus]

9 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

What do you think causes this seeking energy to come up? 

Maybe this. 

²The ego always seeks to divide and separate. ³The Holy Spirit always seeks to unify and heal. (https://acim.org/acim/en/s/110#5:2-3 | T-7.IV.5:2-3) 

Edited 7 hours ago by Salvijus

[CoolDreamThanks]

7 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

What do you think causes this seeking energy to come up? 

It just seems like a habitual pattern, the remnants of the seeker coming up and dissolving 

[Salvijus]

20 minutes ago, CoolDreamThanks said:

It just seems like a habitual pattern, the remnants of the seeker coming up and dissolving 

This is where I have beef with some of the nonduality teachers(except gangaji and J. krishnamurti.) My logic tells me that we behave as we perceive ourselves. If we perceive ourselves in lack and seperation(unawareness, ignorance), we will generate seeking energy to fill that sense of lack. If we percieve ourselves as not lacking anything at all(truth, enlightenment, realization), our behavior will be no longer about self grasping but just an extension of joy that radiates through you. And that's a big shift in behavior and state of mind imo. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Salvijus

[CoolDreamThanks]

25 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

This is where I have beef with some of the nonduality teachers(except gangaji and J. krishnamurti.) My logic tells me that we behave as we perceive ourselves. If we perceive ourselves in lack and seperation(unawareness, ignorance), we will generate seeking energy to fill that sense of lack. If we percieve ourselves as not lacking anything at all(truth, enlightenment, realization), our behavior will be no longer about self grasping but just an extension of joy that radiates through you. And that's a big shift in behavior and state of mind imo. 

Yeah, I see it the same. When the seeking energy stops or becomes minimized, you're just no longer an annoying guy to be around haha. I think that's when someone becomes genuinely attractive. Seeking energy is like a human repellant haha

I see Lisa, Suzzane and Jim demonstrating such pleasant, non-seeking energy.

Edited 6 hours ago by CoolDreamThanks

[Salvijus]

13 minutes ago, CoolDreamThanks said:

Yeah, I see it the same.

That's where the notion that "nondual realization makes no changes to your behavior" crumbles imo. I imagine there's a huge difference between how an ignorant and illumined mind behaves, how fear versus love behaves. How clinging versus trust and faith behaves etc. And not all nondual teachers acknowledge that as far as I know. Many of them think there is no change at all. That never made sense to me tbh. 

[CoolDreamThanks]

3 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

That's where the notion that "nondual realization makes no changes to your behavior" crumbles imo. I imagine there's a huge difference between how an ignorant and illumined mind behaves, how fear versus love behaves. How clinging versus trust and faith behaves etc. And not all nondual teachers acknowledge that as far as I know. Many of them think there is no change at all. That never made sense to me tbh. 

Oh yeah, there's definitely a change in behavior after non-dual realization. I haven't even seen people say otherwise; Jim, Lisa, and Suzzane say that things do change.