The neurobiology of authoritarianism

[aurum]

3 minutes ago, Osaid said:

It seems that much of current society values or encourages appearances over authenticity. As in, it's encouraged that you don't say what you really mean. You don't wanna be too honest in your job interview. You don't wanna be too honest in the workplace. It's considered "rude". "Disruptive". "Controversial". etc.

But, putting up appearances is exactly what narcissism is. Such a culture would in fact breed narcissism all over the place. They would get so good at putting up appearances that they would fool everyone. It's obvious to me who does and doesn't have NPD, but apparently not to most of the population.

There is a difference between managing your image and narcissism. Narcissism is much more extreme.

Yes, obviously our culture is very concerned with appearances. But that's precisely because appearances are so important for survival.

Denigrating managing appearances is untenable as a position because ultimately we all have to do it to some degree.

3 minutes ago, Osaid said:

That being said, here is probably the truest statement you'll see on how MAGA thinks:

The problem with that quote is that "for" or "against" is not a clear distinction.

If you work against my enemy, that is good for my survival. So of course Trumpers will feel like he is working for them.

[Raze]

2 hours ago, aurum said:

The science is not on your side. 

If a country backslides into authoritarianism, the more likely conclusion would be that a significant percentage of people already had authoritarian brain structure. Not that their brain structure changed overnight. 

 

“Science” like this is extremely unreliable and regularly fails to replicate.

That also makes little sense as it implies the amount who support authoritarianism remains constant, which would mean no backsliding would ever happen, the society would either be authoritarian or not be indefinitely.

[Osaid]

55 minutes ago, aurum said:

Yes, obviously our culture is very concerned with appearances. But that's precisely because appearances are so important for survival.

Denigrating managing appearances is untenable as a position because ultimately we all have to do it to some degree.

It's all belief. There's no such thing as "putting up appearances", there's just one appearance, which is reality or "what is already the case". Anything that deviates from that would be other than reality.

55 minutes ago, aurum said:

If you work against my enemy, that is good for my survival.

Also belief. There's no survival without enemies, and no enemies without survival. Both define the other. The logic loops because it's a self-perpetuating belief. In order to buy into it, it would have to be overlooked that neither actually causes the other.

Quote

There is a difference between managing your image and narcissism. Narcissism is much more extreme.

Narcissism is all about managing images. Yes, it gets extreme.

Edited April 21 by Osaid

[aurum]

38 minutes ago, Raze said:

“Science” like this is extremely unreliable and regularly fails to replicate.

Replication can be an issue, but right now there's reason to assume that. 

This is also not the only study that has been done on authoritarianism and brain structure:

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Neuroanatomical-correlates-of-system-justifying-a-Balagtas-Tolomeo/aa3ecae8e94d582930c614ec0a1370982a1f45e5?utm_source=consensus

https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fa0028526

We will see what happens with further studies.

38 minutes ago, Raze said:

That also makes little sense as it implies the amount who support authoritarianism remains constant, which would mean no backsliding would ever happen, the society would either be authoritarian or not be indefinitely.

No, it would not imply that.

Different generations will face different survival pressures. So it makes sense they could have different brains. That is evolution at work.

Neuroplasticity also needs to be considered. 

Edited April 21 by aurum

[aurum]

24 minutes ago, Osaid said:

It's all belief. There's no such thing as "putting up appearances", there's just one appearance, which is reality or "what is already the case". Anything that deviates from that would be other than reality.

That level of existential insight doesn't really apply here.

Every time you put on clothing, you are managing your appearance. This is not hard to understand.

24 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Also belief. There's no survival without enemies, and no enemies without survival. Both define the other. The logic loops because it's a self-perpetuating belief. In order to buy into it, it would have to be overlooked that neither actually causes the other.

But you are not going to get people to stop surviving.

So they will continue to have enemies. And they will continue to see their enemies downfall as good for them.

[Osaid]

Just now, aurum said:

That level of existential insight doesn't really apply here.

Of course existence applies everywhere. 

1 minute ago, aurum said:

Every time you put on clothing, you are managing your appearance. This is not hard to understand.

32 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Also belief. There's no survival without enemies, and no enemies without survival. Both define the other. The logic loops because it's a self-perpetuating belief. In order to buy into it, it would have to be overlooked that neither actually causes the other.

But you are not going to get people to stop surviving.

So they will continue to have enemies. And they will continue to see their enemies downfall as good for them.

It just comes down to what you believe you are.

[aurum]

16 minutes ago, Osaid said:

It just comes down to what you believe you are.

If your belief is that you will stop survival, that is not a good belief.

The central theme here is that you and many progressives are failing to understand how people could happily support an authoritarian. You're not appreciating how radically different other people's survival could be from yours.

Survival is profoundly relative.

[Raze]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

No, it would not imply that.

Different generations will face different survival pressures. So it makes sense they could have different brains. That is evolution at work.

Neuroplasticity also needs to be considered. 

It’s not happening on a generational basis. Germany rapidly switched from authoritarian to non-authoritarian to authoritarian to non-authoritarian in the span of one generation.

[Osaid]

39 minutes ago, aurum said:

Survival is profoundly relative.

It's so relative, in fact, that it doesn't exist. No one was born and no one dies. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[aurum]

13 minutes ago, Raze said:

It’s not happening on a generational basis. Germany rapidly switched from authoritarian to non-authoritarian to authoritarian to non-authoritarian in the span of one generation.

You are cherry-picking a highly atypical example. Most societies do not change that rapidly, which supports my point.

Also, rapid shifts are still possible if authoritarianism correlates with brain structure. You could have a distribution of liberal and authoritarian brains that is relatively equal, which would allow for swings. Especially if the survival pressures of that particular generation changed.

It's more so about where your center of gravity is and what political direction you are likely to trend.  

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Osaid said:

It's so relative, in fact, that it doesn't exist. No one was born and no one dies. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Good luck convincing humans of that.

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Osaid said:

That being said, something like authoritarianism is just someone with NPD who has a large span of control in their political field. You can study the literature on NPD and you will easily see the same narcissistic patterns repeating themselves everywhere. Authoritarianism isn't just in politics, it's wherever the clinical narcissist decides to exploit. 

That can't be correct.

Not all authoritarians are narcissists.

Putin does not act like a narcissist.

Authortirainism is a response to extremely challenging survival conditions. It's much more profound than just someone with a big ego. Authoritarianism is functional. It serves survival. Which is why it is appealing to millions of people. It's not about ego, it's about how best to organize society so that it functions effectively.

Which is why all militaries have an authoritarian governance structure. The military is not structured as it is because some guy had a big ego and wanted to lord over everyone. It's because if it wasn't structured that way everyone involved would be dead.

Edited April 21 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That can't be correct.

Not all authoritarians are narcissists.

Putin does not act like a narcissist.

Authortirainism is a response to extremely challenging survival conditions. It's much more profound than just someone with a big ego. Authoritarianism is functional. It serves survival. Which is why it is appealing to millions of people. It's not about ego, it's about how best to organize society so that it functions effectively.

Putin is very narcissistic. You can't become a power-hungry ruthless monster like him without unusually high levels of narcissism. Not to mention the incredible lack of empathy he has for all of the lives he has taken in both Russia and Ukraine.

Edited April 21 by Hardkill

[Breathe]

7 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

But why the landscape has become so favorable? Why the whole world seems to skew towards authoritarianism? 5 years ago it seemed like the whole world is moving up the spiral. Why is this huge backlash happening? Why is the world reacting so viciously against stage Green? Especially stage Blue societies who haven't even gone to Orange are demonizing Green like hell.

Why ?

It's not about being skewed toward authoritarianism. It's about wanting someone in charge that shares the same views as they do and fuck everyone else. But, it's also fear mongering, disinformation, etc. People are being manipulated into believing that the person they are electing actually cares for them, and will follow through with promises.

6 hours ago, aurum said:

The science is not on your side. 

If a country backslides into authoritarianism, the more likely conclusion would be that a significant percentage of people already had authoritarian brain structure. Not that their brain structure changed overnight.

Nope, see above comment.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Putin is very narcissistic. You can't become a power-hungry ruthless monster like him without unusually high levels of narcissism.

Or is that your projection?

[Breathe]

Democracy sounds good on paper until the person elected does not share the same values as you do. The problem is, that people have certain values because of indoctrination and lack of life experience. I theorize that democracy will only work under certain conditions: Educated voters, honest politics, and a commitment to equality.

Stupid people are incapable of holding a democracy together.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Breathe said:

Democracy sounds good on paper until the person elected does not share the same values as you do.

This is an excellent point.

People don't care about democracy per se, they care about their tribe's survival.

Trump promises to destroy the woke tribe, so his voters are happy. They see the woke tribe as demonic.

Edited April 21 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Or is that your projection?

Everyone has at least some degree of ego or narcissism in order to survive. 

However, when it gets to clinical levels of narcissism if not extreme levels of narcissism that's when you really begin to truly ruin the lives of people you're involved with.

Yes, authoritarianism is suited for a country like Russia and Putin comes off as a smart, hard-working, and serious leader; however, you cannot deny how incredibly selfish he is for murdering a lot of innocent and good people in Russia and Ukraine.

I don't think he really cares about the well-being of the people of his country. He just cares about amassing as much power and wealth as possible and having a great legacy.

Edited April 21 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

 you cannot deny how incredibly selfish he is for murdering a lot of innocent and good people in Russia and Ukraine.

That has nothing to do with narcissism.

That you cannot see that is disturbing.

War is a much more serious matter than someone's ego acting out.

Edited April 21 by Leo Gura

[Breathe]

I've been thinking about this for a while now.

I believe in democratic processes and values. DEMOCRACY IS GREAT! As long as people are somewhat aligned in values. You can't have 50% of the people believing one thing and the other 50% disagreeing. That's not going to result in anything but conflict and chaos.

We need to stop thinking of things in terms of democrats, republicans, capitalism, socialism, etc.

We need to start thinking about how we keep corruption out of politics.

PERIOD.

Start there, root it out, and find a way to keep it the fuck out.

If corruption is in place, political affiliation or ideology means nothing.

Once we can get corruption out of the white house we can start to think about how to address important issues that help the majority of the american people.

Edited April 21 by Breathe