Getting sexually objectified as a man

[Consept]

36 minutes ago, Majed said:

@Consept How were they lesbians if they were sexualizing you ? 

The owner and the one driving the jokes is a lesbien, she might have been doing it because thats her type of humour or she knows the other girls find me attractive, I don't know the reason for sure but it's obviously a bit weird from my pov 

[Consept]

36 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

Being objectified is never great, you're right to be upset by it. 

It's a case of group gossip. In my experience whenever a group of people who know each other well get together, there's a tendency to misbehave even if there's no malicious intent behind it. Usually they know "it's wrong", but because it's kept in the group they don't perceive any harm to be done. In this case it leaked however and I bet some people in the group are embarrassed by it.  The leak might be enough for them to stop doing it.

There's something about being in an intimate group that allows you to relax your normal social standards as a form of bonding or fitting in, and some of the more risque behaviour is driven by just one or two in the group with everyone else tagging along or at least not calling out the bad behaviour.

 

Wow, this is actually an amazingly accurate summation of what happened. I honestly don't think there was malicious intent as you say, it's really immature and how you describe but obviously I wasn't supposed to know. 

The other thing is that they would say things in front of me where I felt I wasn't in on the joke and obviously it was about me, so this kinda annoyed a little bit anyway, so I know something was going on. I guess that's part of their fun of how close can we get to the edge. 

What do you think about the girl that I'm seeing that told me about it, she didn't really say in a way where it was like, this is fucked up. She was also reluctant to tell me. She obviously got caught up in it and tagged along, assuming they've been doing this since I got there which was about 6 months I've only been seeing her 1 month so she wouldn't have had any specific loyalty to me before. Also unprompted she's now going to talk to this owner. 

I'm looking at her slightly different because I don't think I would've gone along with something like this but at the same time I get how it happens 

[LastThursday]

The risque behaviour can become more overt, because there is a kind of desensitisation that happens within the group where the bad behaviour becomes normalised. It's cognitively hard to maintain different social conventions in different situations, so the line about what's acceptable can become blurred for some people, and they don't realise they're being inappropriate in the wrong context.

Some people will also get a rush from breaking social rules or bending them, especially if they belong to a group that both accepts it and is in on what's happening - they may also feel braver if the group is there to back them up should things go wrong.

For the woman you're with I suspect that there are benefits to her belonging to the group, but there are also benefits to her belonging to "your group", so she has to weigh up the pros and cons of belonging to each (even if she doesn't realise this consciously), she may want to be loyal to both. In my experience many women want to "please everybody".  She was reluctant to tell you because she knew what was happening was wrong and felt embarrassed, but also because she was conflicted about loyalty, and dobbing in her group could risk expulsion from it. But it looks like she's made her mind up, good for her. 

[Consept]

@LastThursday

Thanks do much for your input, honestly so helpful. 

1 hour ago, LastThursday said:

The risque behaviour can become more overt, because there is a kind of desensitisation that happens within the group where the bad behaviour becomes normalised. It's cognitively hard to maintain different social conventions in different situations, so the line about what's acceptable can become blurred for some people, and they don't realise they're being inappropriate in the wrong context.

Yeah I think this definitely happened to some extent, essentially the owner was living a bit of a double life with the group and this bled over to normal social situations. I do think some of the humour was pushing the boundaries as well. 

1 hour ago, LastThursday said:

Some people will also get a rush from breaking social rules or bending them, especially if they belong to a group that both accepts it and is in on what's happening - they may also feel braver if the group is there to back them up should things go wrong.

Exactly yeah because there's a few them and no one calling it out it's just completely normalised. However they know it's not really right otherwise they wouldn't use coded language around me.

1 hour ago, LastThursday said:

For the woman you're with I suspect that there are benefits to her belonging to the group, but there are also benefits to her belonging to "your group", so she has to weigh up the pros and cons of belonging to each (even if she doesn't realise this consciously), she may want to be loyal to both. In my experience many women want to "please everybody".  She was reluctant to tell you because she knew what was happening was wrong and felt embarrassed, but also because she was conflicted about loyalty, and dobbing in her group could risk expulsion from it. But it looks like she's made her mind up, good for her. 

So accurate again, I think that's it she wanted to keep her role in the group, however she does realise the flaws in the people involved and points them out, so she's aware they're not the most mature and to her credit doesn't fully follow them, for example they drink and party and she's never drunk before at all. So I do have respect for that and that she can hold her own identity. 

I'm not sure why she told me I wasn't really pressing her to, maybe on a sub-conscious level she felt it was the right thing to do. However, she kinda presented as, look at the funny banter we have. But her reaction of wanting to tell them not to do it anymore is positive. I do feel that she hasn't taken full accountability for her part in it, but I will grant her a bit of time with that. I am slightly conflicted about it, some things she handled well and others I'm not sure about 

[LastThursday]

@Consept you're most welcome. Could be any number reasons why she won't account for herself. Maybe it's embarrassment, lack of awareness, inability to apologise, or she's not culpable because she didn't instigate things, etc. We're all imperfect in some ways. I think in this case her actions are speaking louder than her absent words, she's apologising by putting things right, and showing you her loyalty.

 

[integral]

It’s like girls that go to a strip club for their party, how did they behave?

A bunch of black guys playing sports athletic tall with their dicks bouncing around in front of them in shorts, and they can pick whoever they want because guys are easy… “yes women look at dick bouncing around they always have”

It’s not very complicated

It’s like guys going to a girls volleyball game… what do you expect?

If in high school a rumour spreads that a guy has a big dick, a bunch of girls will sleep with him, this is very common.

Are you seriously complaining that you have big dick problems?

Sex and attraction is animalistic and primitive it’s not about your personality or other qualities at first, it only becomes about your deeper qualities later

is the person you’re with objectify you all the time and only wants sex from you like some sex object? No probably not. After the attraction phase it’s about two people sharing their lives

Edited April 17 by integral

[Princess Arabia]

21 hours ago, Consept said:

Anyway i know women go through this all the time so I'm not trying to take away from that, if anything i can empathise more with that situation but i guess just expressing how it made me feel personally. 

No, not in your circumstance, anyway. Guys seem to think we get openly sexually objectified by men all the time that are in groups. It's usually in secret or on a one-to-one basis. Guys are more careful not to do this in groups as much for fear of rejection and having their peers notice. I'm not saying it doesn't happen to women at all what you're explaining, but it's more the opposite in groups.

Take, for example, strip clubs. Male strippers will get more screams, more women going up by the stage and looking more excited than the men do with female strippers. The males will sit there and fantasize, privately drool and dream about what it would be like being with her. If it's a party-setting type club they might show more but it's still pretty contained. They'll go in the back for a private show and want to get physical. Point here is, women feel more comfortable doing this in public amongst other women because it feels safe; men feel more comfortable doing this in private for the same reason - it feels safe. No one to see the rejection, if she does, but him.

It's a double standard, yes, and it makes both genders feel uncomfortable; but in regards to who is more at risk for physical harm, the women are. You won't find a woman waiting in the alley or after club hours to try and get into your pants all by herself, while a man may do this to the female if he's the type. So that's why it's usually more accepted by society when women do these things. Some men don't like it because they look at it from the perspective that if that were them, and the tables were turned, they'd be getting into some real trouble or the behavior wouldn't be tolerated.

We as a society have to look at this from the gender perspective and realize men and women aren't the same in this respect and that men and women will or be looked at differently, and with good reason, when it comes to sexual issues and objectification because of the statistics showing more men are sexual predators and can actually do more harm sexually to women than a woman can to a man (sexually).

All that said, I'm not justifying the women's behaviors because it's in poor taste, but look deep into why it bothered you to begin with and, as you've stated, it's probably because if it were you, the response would have been different and you're just rebelling against the double standard and not their actions.

[Princess Arabia]

20 minutes ago, integral said:

It’s like girls that go to a strip club for their party, how did they behave?

A bunch of black guys athletic tall with their dicks bouncing around in front of them in shorts, and they can pick whoever they want because guys are easy… “yes women look at dick bouncing around they always have”

It's funny you wrote this because I was writing my response at the same time and we both referenced this type behavior in strip clubs and how the women react.

Edited April 17 by Princess Arabia

[Princess Arabia]

4 hours ago, Consept said:

The owner and the one driving the jokes is a lesbien, she might have been doing it because thats her type of humour or she knows the other girls find me attractive, I don't know the reason for sure but it's obviously a bit weird from my pov 

This is what you're not understanding. Most times women aren't doing this because they would actually sleep with you or even want to. My lesbian girlfriend (not lover), would enjoy looking at other men's penises. She would be looking at men's bulges walking down the street or on TV. If she watched porn, shed be watching the straight ones and the men's dicks. She is the more masculine one in her relationships. They do this as a comparison. To what they don't have. Imagining what it would be like to have one. Their gfs are usually feminine or more on the feminine side compared to them. This is why I say, it's not about wanting to sleep with you from the women's perspective, but just as a fantasy. I'm not surprised she was lesbian. 

Edited April 17 by Princess Arabia

[integral]

9 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

It's funny you wrote this because I was writing my response at the same time and we both referenced this type behavior in strip clubs and how the women react.

Lmao we are both ambassadors of truth, it is only natural 😅

Guys are so conditioned by women being these innocent princesses from Disney. I was pretty late into dating when a girl told me that other girls look at bulge when a guy walks in a room. I was shocked. Lmao I had no idea.

Men and women are not equal, the survival game is completely different, Women are at threat of getting raped and harassed, so it’s 10x more toxic when men do this privately.

it also depends entirely on how toxic the women are who are participating in this. There’s a toxic way to do this in a healthy way to do this. 

[Consept]

12 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

No, not in your circumstance, anyway. Guys seem to think we get openly sexually objectified by men all the time that are in groups. It's usually in secret or on a one-to-one basis. Guys are more careful not to do this in groups as much for fear of rejection and having their peers notice. I'm not saying it doesn't happen to women at all what you're explaining, but it's more the opposite in groups.

Interesting, I was more saying women have their own struggles with it as I didnt want to dismiss that but yea thinking about it, I havent really experienced a group of adult men, objectifying a woman to this extent. However what you do get is essentially predators that are infinitely more dangerous and are capable of doing something egregious but my guess is its usually done solo, theres not a group dynamic.

14 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

All that said, I'm not justifying the women's behaviors because it's in poor taste, but look deep into why it bothered you to begin with and, as you've stated, it's probably because if it were you, the response would have been different and you're just rebelling against the double standard and not their actions.

No i strongly disagree with you here, this is not a semantic argument thing of 'oh what if the tables were turned' i would only say that to give perspective. I genuinely felt objectified, reason is because I felt they reduced me to a sexual organ and made jokes that i could hear but not fully understand. If i heard it from random people its one thing but i saw them regularly once or twice a week, they got to no me etc. 

I had a similar feeling when a step uncle of mine, whos white, said something along the lines of 'youre just gonna look like one of those black boys' because i wore a silver chain when i was 18. I took offence because its like I see you as a complete person but you reduce me to a stereotype with ease. 

Obviously with the womens behaviour i didnt feel in danger or anything and Im not afraid to speak out, which is something I know is not a privilege of women. But you even dismissing that i might actually feel something that isnt just a rebellious argument, goes to show that a lot of women dont consider mens feelings. Thats not to get at you but i think it is an issue generally.  

[Princess Arabia]

19 hours ago, Consept said:

The same people if they heard they or one of their friends was talked about the same by a bunch of guys would straight away say it's wrong

This is what I mean. You're more upset about the double standards than their actions. I understand it, and it's uncomfortable either way if not welcomed. 

[Consept]

41 minutes ago, integral said:

It’s like girls that go to a strip club for their party, how did they behave?

A bunch of black guys playing sports athletic tall with their dicks bouncing around in front of them in shorts, and they can pick whoever they want because guys are easy… “yes women look at dick bouncing around they always have”

It’s not very complicated

It’s like guys going to a girls volleyball game… what do you expect?

If in high school a rumour spreads that a guy has a big dick, a bunch of girls will sleep with him, this is very common.

Are you seriously complaining that you have big dick problems?

Sex and attraction is animalistic and primitive it’s not about your personality or other qualities at first, it only becomes about your deeper qualities later

is the person you’re with objectify you all the time and only wants sex from you like some sex object? No probably not. After the attraction phase it’s about two people sharing their lives

I think you reducing this a lot. For one they dont know if i have a big dick or not, theyre saying it more based off of a stereotype. This isnt about them wanting to sleep with me, its just a way for them to have fun, kind of at my expense, im not in on the joke. I and the rest of the guys are not strippers who have accepted these type of things happen, we're just normal guys. If you think about it setting up a group, sharing pictures and making jokes in front of the target is a bit more than just looking at someone that youre attracted to, remember this was going on for 6 months. 

I dont think its wrong to have boundaries especially in a somewhat professional situation 

[Consept]

8 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

This is what I mean. You're more upset about the double standards than their actions. I understand it, and it's uncomfortable either way if not welcomed. 

Its not about the double standards, but cool, you dont think that i can feel anything outside a logical outrage. I honestly dont care about the double standards Im more disappointed in their behaviour. Its a visceral feeling, not 'wait a minute, im not allowed to do that'. 

But your unwillingness to accept i might actually feel something does speak to a lot of these problems

Edited April 17 by Consept

[Princess Arabia]

4 minutes ago, Consept said:

No i strongly disagree with you here, this is not a semantic argument thing of 'oh what if the tables were turned' i would only say that to give perspective. I genuinely felt objectified, reason is because I felt they reduced me to a sexual organ and made jokes that i could hear but not fully understand. If i heard it from random people its one thing but i saw them regularly once or twice a week, they got to no me etc. 

I'm not dismissing that you genuinely felt objectified. You mentioned the story about your uncle and the chain so it shows we can feel objectified in ways that are not sexual. Maybe you want to be seen by everyone as more than just a physical body and people keep reducing you to that and it becomes frustrating. The women's actions was maybe a reminder of that and you take offence because you want to be seen more than it. Like you're not taken seriously for who you actually are internally. These are just symptoms for of what's really going on internally. Mentioning the uncle and the chain, and how this conversation brought those memories back to light, made me believe that's whats really going on.

[integral]

@Consept your emotions are valid. I didn’t realize this is about bullying.

If every time they see you, you’re basically being bullied then it makes sense

I’ve had the exact same situation happens to me with women, but I only took it as a compliment.

I think you care a lot about people viewing you as you’re true authentic self and don’t like the flexibility of role-play?

You could’ve owned it if you wanted to you could’ve done anything with it, but for you it feels like bullying and degrading.

It’s perfectly fine if you feel this way and that you choose to have their identity tangled with your environment in that specific way

Personally, I went a different route

Edited April 17 by integral

[Princess Arabia]

3 minutes ago, Consept said:

But your unwillingness to accept i might actually feel something does speak to a lot of these problems

I made that comment before reading your explanation as to why you keep mentioning the double standard part. It's a matter of explaining it from a perspective and not the main issue at hand. I get that, and I'm not in unacceptance about it. I'm just trying to see why it bothered you as much and why you might have such strong feelings about being sexually objectified. It's not Universal to harbor resentment over this, as some people, even women, don't mind at all to be objectified sexually. It's a personal thing. Personally, it doesn't bother me, and I accept that I can see it however I choose and that it's how I see it that brings about the feeling. As long as a boundary wasn't crossed where it got physical, i don't let it bother me. You have every right to feel how you feel and i'm just expressing my thoughts on it from my personal pov. Maybe because i've gotten desensitized by it and it has become the norm, but don't think i'm not empathetic towards your feelings about it. It's wrong from both sides.

[Princess Arabia]

9 minutes ago, integral said:

I think you care a lot about people viewing you as you’re true authentic self and don’t like the flexibility of role-play?

I said this too and i think it's probably the main issue. I don't blame him, though, we work hard on ourselves to improve and then to be only seen as a body part can be truly disappointing.

[integral]

5 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

I said this too and i think it's probably the main issue. I don't blame him, though, we work hard on ourselves to improve and then to be only seen as a body part can be truly disappointing.

I also got caught up in viewing this from the perspective of objectification and gender role reversal, when this had to do it identity. I agree with how you pointed this out.

[Princess Arabia]

20 minutes ago, Consept said:

Im more disappointed in their behaviour.

This is why I don't put people up on a pedestal or look down on them. Disappointment is inevitable both ways. I see it as I set my own boundaries and as long as they're not crossed, I'm ok. The disappointment has now become about your expectations of people and how you would like to see them. If you dig deep inside yourself, you'll realize you're more disappointed in yourself for the standards you've set for others.