Legalization of (Soft) Drugs, esp. Cannabis

[Zane-]

Hello everyone!

My topic relates to Leo's blog post from 10th April ( https://www.actualized.org/insights/drug-decriminalization-gone-wrong  )

I disagree with Leo's opinion that he states in this post - and I am interested in your opinion, guys. This post mostly focuses on weed / softer drugs.

Right now I am writing from Germany, and - maybe you've heard - weed is (partially) decriminalized / legalized in my country since April 2024. This is a huge accomplishment in drug policy since repression didn't work at all. And many of us fought for years.

Let me state from the beginning that I fully recognize the harmful effects of cannabis - one can get addicted, it can cripple your motivation and aspirations, it can be harmful to your physical and mental health, consumption isn't cheap, possibility of psychosis etc. (as with alcohol by the way) BUT ...

Here are my arguments for the legalization of soft drugs:

1) Repression / prohibition didn't work with alcohol, it's the same with weed and other softer drugs.

2) I know the statistics for Germany: Even though weed was prohibited for ... at least 80 years, the consumption increased, especially over the last few years. Of course, the consumption won't decrease with legalization, but at least people have access to a clean product without toxic chemicals and other things that make the dealer make more money (fertilizer sprayed on the buds, led, glass, sand, glue ...).

3) Of course we all should strive for a clean and conscious life, but that's simply not the reality for most ("common") people. They smoke, they drink, they consume weed. Recreational use of substances is neither healthy nor desirable. But our brains are wired that way. Homo sapiens sapiens likes dopamine and endocannabinoids. Some people don't find any other outlet from their stressful working day. At least the bodily effects of weed are way less harmful than the effects of alcohol or tobacco (see David Nutt's study from 2010, comparing the harm potentials of many legal and illegal drugs). And, at least in my opinion, the borders between recreational and spiritual consumption are blurry.

4) We all have a vague understanding of the genesis of addiction - and I can recall several of Leo's videos in which he himself explains it quite well. People get addicted because of problems, because of life circumstances such as unemployment, societal situations, boredom, grief, other negative emotions ... Just because cannabis (or even other and harder drugs) are prohibited doesn't mean that people won't get addicted. Addicts need social workers, psychotherapists, and most importantly love (from friends, family, from themselves) ... It's not the drug's fault. We should encourage a mature consumption of substances.

I get that Americans - especially with the opiod situation going on there right now (and it is spreading all over the world) - are very ambivalent when it comes to the political discussion surrounding drugs. But I think it is very dangerous to regress back to conservative positions. Maybe we have to find other solutions for harder drugs such as cocaine and opioids. But even with these substances, I don't think that repression and criminalization is the right way to go.

What do you think?

Greetings from Germany! 

[Jannes]

Yeah data suggests that in general the effects are positive, consumption stays roughly the same but the police gets relief, the weed is clean, selling weed legally boosts the economy, but prevention work is important. All in all its mostly a good thing.

 

I remember years ago when I smoked weed sometimes when it was illegal. I remember how much I didnt give a fuck, it made it all the more exciting walking through the streets with a joint. And it wasnt like it was hard to get when you had some friends.

[Basman]

It is actually a misnomer that prohibition was an abject failure and that it only served to fuel gang violence. Prohibition was actually successful at reducing overall alcohol consumption and related illnesses and violence before and after (https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/6/5/18518005/prohibition-alcohol-public-health-crime-benefits).

The article further argues that we may be overcompensating due to the perception of prohibition being an abject failure and I tend to agree as we largely atomize the burden of responsibility for drug use in our discourse. Greater access to drugs will probably lead to an increase in consumption which will cost society in a variety of ways. The idea that it is "never the drugs fault" is silly and frivillous because it implies that we as a society aren't responsible for what drugs are circulating in the community and their effects or that drug users are fully rational and in control of their decisions. It glazes over serious addiction as if drugs are purely an outlet for mental ilnesses and not chemically addicting and destructive of families and personal lives. 

I would suggest that no drug should not be regulated. If criminalization isn't an option then atleast restrictions and high taxes. Imagine the chaos if we didn't have any restrictions on alcohol. Likewise, there would need to be rules about weed and heavily taxed as to become an occasional luxury for the average person.

[integral]

12 hours ago, Zane- said:

1) Repression / prohibition didn't work with alcohol, it's the same with weed and other softer drugs.

Logical fallacy, just because repression wasn't perfect it doesn't mean the alternative is better. The alternative could very well be worse.

Often the best move is to do nothing at all.

12 hours ago, Zane- said:

2) I know the statistics for Germany: Even though weed was prohibited for ... at least 80 years, the consumption increased, especially over the last few years. Of course, the consumption won't decrease with legalization, but at least people have access to a clean product without toxic chemicals and other things that make the dealer make more money (fertilizer sprayed on the buds, led, glass, sand, glue ...).

Legalization will cause the consumption of weed to explode through the roof like it did in Canada. Consumption will 10x, it is not a win to Legalize It if you care about reducing consumption. The claim is weed manufacturing will produce healthier weed while as a trade-off 10x more people are going to smoke it. If cigarettes were illegal It would reduce cigarette addiction 100x. This is just a win.

This happens to be a straw man that you've constructed because your sidestepping the problem of the rapid increase in weed consumption that will follow legalization.

12 hours ago, Zane- said:

3) Of course we all should strive for a clean and conscious life, but that's simply not the reality for most ("common") people. They smoke, they drink, they consume weed. Recreational use of substances is neither healthy nor desirable. But our brains are wired that way. Homo sapiens sapiens likes dopamine and endocannabinoids. Some people don't find any other outlet from their stressful working day. At least the bodily effects of weed are way less harmful than the effects of alcohol or tobacco (see David Nutt's study from 2010, comparing the harm potentials of many legal and illegal drugs). And, at least in my opinion, the borders between recreational and spiritual consumption are blurry.

Just isn't true, this is Cherry Picked, the effects of weed are not minor at all, it has a strong impact on a person's life and anxiety levels especially when it's done as a teenager. You need to be more Vigilant about your own epistemology and not fall into the Trap of confirmation bias by citing studies,  

An epistemic wizard will carefully incorporating multiple epistemic approaches and combining them all together.

12 hours ago, Zane- said:

4) We all have a vague understanding of the genesis of addiction - and I can recall several of Leo's videos in which he himself explains it quite well. People get addicted because of problems, because of life circumstances such as unemployment, societal situations, boredom, grief, other negative emotions ... Just because cannabis (or even other and harder drugs) are prohibited doesn't mean that people won't get addicted. Addicts need social workers, psychotherapists, and most importantly love (from friends, family, from themselves) ... It's not the drug's fault. We should encourage a mature consumption of substances.

It will make it a lot easier for people to get addicted now that it's legal. So again your sidestepping the problem. You can get better social workers, psychotherapists and all of that good stuff without legalizing drugs.

Edited Tuesday at 01:30 AM by integral

[integral]

10 hours ago, Jannes said:

Yeah data suggests that in general the effects are positive, consumption stays roughly the same but the police gets relief, the weed is clean, selling weed legally boosts the economy, but prevention work is important. All in all its mostly a good thing.

This is not true you got to do your research.

Also you could give police a relief by simply not incarcerating people who buy and use. Only pursue manufacturers.

Edited Tuesday at 01:34 AM by integral

[Jannes]

8 hours ago, integral said:

This is not true you got to do your research.

Also you could give police a relief by simply not incarcerating people who buy and use. Only pursue manufacturers.

Well I asked chatgpt about it and summarized it roughly.

Manufacturing is already highly illegal and they do it anyway so why would you expect a change?

[Jannes]

9 hours ago, integral said:

Legalization will cause the consumption of weed to explode through the roof like it did in Canada. Consumption will 10x, it is not a win to Legalize It if you care about reducing consumption. The claim is weed manufacturing will produce healthier weed while as a trade-off 10x more people are going to smoke it. If cigarettes were illegal It would reduce cigarette addiction 100x. This is just a win.

This happens to be a straw man that you've constructed because your sidestepping the problem of the rapid increase in weed consumption that will follow legalization.

Weed consumption increased by like 20% in cannada after legalization, you gotta do your research sir: https://health-infobase.canada.ca/cannabis/data-exploration.html#fig2Wrapper

While that is an increase the weed is cleaner and the extra tax money you get from selling cannabis legally and the savings from police work can be put into prevention work.

 

[Jannes]

Through tax, reduction of policing and new economic impulses germany earns around 4-5 billion euros a year for legalizing weed: (sorry the source is german) https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1277599/umfrage/steueraufkommen-und-einsparungen-durch-eine-cannabislegalisierung-in-deutschland/

Big campaigns which do education work cost around 50-100 million euros a year. So you can put 2% of the profits from legalizing weed into these campaigns which might balance out the effect of legalization and you end up with lots of extra cash for free basically.

[Flowerfaeiry]

I go back and forth with drug legalization. I mean weed is one thing I think it’s definitely less harmless than alcohol and while there are some arguments I could go down that say it shouldn’t be legalized and it’s negative effects I overall appreciate it is.

 

Im just realizing how long this could get haha but overall I’ve been thinking lately that I’m glad drugs and even psychedelics are illegal. Due to seeing how I turned out, haha!! 
 

I am blessed, and at the same time in our world legalizing drugs would just wreck havoc—things would be out of control for so long and we just can’t go through that right now.

 

idk that’s my 2 cents