Ken Wilber thinking Stage Green is the problem (response to Leo's blog)

[BlueOak]

4 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

How do you account for the fact that Green has been around since the 1960s with The Beatles etc that has infiltrated so much culture but never really took over the masses? 
 

Perhaps America needs a national divorce, it just seems unsustainable where you have a good ~30% of the population that basically wants a third world style autocrat in Trump, yet the coastal city folk are so much further evolved than that. I feel like something has gotta give.

This is why people push for yellow, because these two things can better coexist within any created authority, collective or structure. The friction isn't there when I try to balance both. But what you just created in your statement is full of friction and division of something that can coexist if its properly balanced.

Edited Monday at 08:29 AM by BlueOak

[Daniel Balan]

3 hours ago, jimwell said:

Why not?

Suppose 100 years from now we live in a UBI Yellow economic and cultural system. We are still alive and have 5-year-old kids. It means that our kids have skipped traditional Orange stage. They can simply learn the essence of Orange such as accomplishment, logic, reason, etc. in another way. They don't need to experience and learn Orange the way we did. 

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime! 

The essence of Orange is one's ability to survive and to take care of himself without calling mom or dad for rent money! Financial independence! 

[sholomar]

57 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime! 

The essence of Orange is one's ability to survive and to take care of himself without calling mom or dad for rent money! Financial independence! 

Not everyone wants or has the capability to go into business for themselves or play the game to evade taxes, hide assets in trusts, by multiple properties, create multiple LLCs, and game the system for their own benefit. If jobs don't pay living wages just because they are low skill, we will never truly get above orange. We were making progress, then the pandemic hit and the price of houses suddenly doubled in 3 years, without the corresponding needed wage increases, pricing a growing number out of the system, nevermind the cost of living in other countries. Forget the fact that the average person doesn't spend their life pondering philosophical issues, and the limitations of our genetic makeup.

Getting a society to push green will be an undertaking itself, especially on a global scale. 

[Apparition of Jack]

1 hour ago, Daniel Balan said:

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime! 

The essence of Orange is one's ability to survive and to take care of himself without calling mom or dad for rent money! Financial independence! 

How hard is it to fish? We’re not cavemen anymore. Even someone with just your basic high school degree is vastly more educated than a peasant was 200 years ago.

With access to cars, technologies, the internet, global shipping etc your average person today can be 100 times more productive in a year than someone born just a few generations ago. We’ve built a society of technological marvels, why not put them to human use?

Edited Monday at 12:09 PM by Apparition of Jack

[Leo Gura]

Orange is much more than making money. It is setting your own goals, rationality, science, seeing limitations of dogma, fitness and health, dating and attraction, democracy vs theocracy, secularism, financial responsibility, self-education, etc.

Edited Monday at 12:17 PM by Leo Gura

[Daniel Balan]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is where I disagree.

There is no appeasing stage Blue and Orange by being nicer to them and bending over backwards for them. They will just demonize Green regardless.

Wilber places too much responsibility on Green while Blue and Orange behave like utter fucking lunatics.

It is a mistake to think that you can talk down a lunatic by being nice to him.

Green needs to behead a few Wall Street capitalists so they get the message.

The problem with all this Integral theory is that it doesn't understand how power works. Orange capitalists will not give up their power, they will try to enslave everyone under it until they are physically put in handcuffs.

The elephant in the room is hyper capitalism, not Green. Integral theory offers no solution to capitalism, instead capitualating to its corruption.

The issue is not culture war academic gender stuff. The issue is that hyper capitalists are robbing trillions and using it to corrupt government. That is what Green needs to fix. Until that is fixed there should be no talk of Yellow or Game B fantasies.

Wilber grossly overestimates the development level of society by focusing too much on the intellectual cutting edge while ignoring the other 90%. THIS is why Trump won. What matters most is that 90% of the population is Blue or Orange. In this condition there should be no talk of Yellow and there should be no blaming of Green because Green is the next stage. Yellow is not the next stage. This is so obvious yet Wilber doesn't see it.

I have a theory. That Green cannot be truly Green unless it merges with Red. That's who I am. An sensible emotional man, with deep care for the environment and I do my best to not hurt others. But when someone is trying to do harm me in any way I become as violent as possible. I am Green with fellow Green people and wicked Red with Orange, Blue and Red.
Unless Green develops some balls and combines with Red, it will never overpower Blue and Orange. A Green person without Red is like a Gun without ammo. 

[Daniel Balan]

1 hour ago, sholomar said:

Not everyone wants or has the capability to go into business for themselves or play the game to evade taxes, hide assets in trusts, by multiple properties, create multiple LLCs, and game the system for their own benefit. If jobs don't pay living wages just because they are low skill, we will never truly get above orange. We were making progress, then the pandemic hit and the price of houses suddenly doubled in 3 years, without the corresponding needed wage increases, pricing a growing number out of the system, nevermind the cost of living in other countries. Forget the fact that the average person doesn't spend their life pondering philosophical issues, and the limitations of our genetic makeup.

Getting a society to push green will be an undertaking itself, especially on a global scale. 

 This is what Orange looks like! You don't need a biz to be Orange. To be Orange means providing for yourself and your family without wishing you had a magic wand that would give you money from the sky. To be Orange means providing value to others in exchange for money. You can do that via blue collar work, white collar work, building a biz etc. Being Orange doesn't mean turning into Jeff Bezos! Being Orange means being an responsible adult!

[Husseinisdoingfine]

If that is the case, then every American citizen should be given a free Tony Robbins book.

 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

I'm joking of course. A real solution that is integral, is not to force everyone up to the next stage as fast as possible. That's not an integral solution.

 

A proper integral solution would be to provide each SDi code with a suitable habitat, where the healthiest expression of that code can flourish, and the unhealthy expressions can be diminished, as well as providing the infrastructure to allow that code to gradually evolve to the next code. 

You will never completely eliminate any one code, n'or should you want to, because each code is needed in a healthy eco system. The first tier codes, their highest form of care is enforcing their memetic system on the rest of society. At yellow, the highest form of care is to provide each code with its own 'habitat', where the healthy expressions of that vMeme system can flourish. 

Orange will continue to exist in society in the form of technological innovation and entrepreneurial ingenuity and creativity, and that will exist within green socialism/social-democratic collective system so that the needs of everyone are met before any realization of profit. 

And even after all of that evolution, there will always be a percentage of the population exhibiting a lower code, and that's a good thing. In Iceland where believe in the mythical invisible people (Huldufólk), and place an importance on family reunions, traditions which go back to the Vikings, they have a community bond which allows them to weather out natural disasters of other mass scale problems. 

 

Edited Monday at 02:43 PM by Husseinisdoingfine

[JTL]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Unfortunately even this isn't true.

Orange is badly needed because 50% of the population still lives paycheck to paycheck, with not enough material security to even have the luxury to care about the environment or trans people.

Our development is so much lower than Wilber says that we haven't even exhausted Orange.

And the Orange stage cannot just be handled by giving people free money and services. Orange is about learning to be an achiever. You can't skip Orange with socialism or UBI. 50% of the population needs to spend 10-20 years just actualizing Orange in themselves. That is our situation.

I really wish you would talk more about society and politics in your blog posts, like vids you did before, really miss them. 

[Aquarius]

I think I am Blue-Green but my work is Highly Orange/Red (I am a seller/marketer)

Why would green be a problem, objectively?

[Gidiot]

I dont see the nuclear family as a given either as we progress out of orange, people will have to re-integrate into communities maybe even for survival reasons like climate change and the cost of housing. I think you can have healthy orange without being a wage slave, healthy orange/green to me would be growing your own food and providing for your family/community and doing some planning for the future. I dont see this future with everyone needing to become an achiever. The world needs yin energy too if everyone was a businessman there would be no workers if everyone was a leader nothing would get done because there would be no followers. As capitalism fails we need to be more creative not more productive at least in my eyes in a green society or at least an orange green society getting rich would have to be for some purpose not just because. And if you cant get rich youre not useless every human being has worth I think that is a core green aspect. Who knows what human ideas of employment even will be in 50 years when automation has taken a lot of the jobs? 

One of the real criticisms i see of society is it doesnt care what YOU want to do, it just wants your money, taxes. productivity for the reasoning that it must go on this way because  its always gone this way. Well I hope that kind of thinking stops with the exhaustion of orange and changes with green. *(non competitive) Everyone has a role to play and many roles are yet to be defined. Cant think with old thinking  Alan watts and osho were quite ahead of their time because they always talked about orange transitioning to green and how it would look like in practice.

Edited Tuesday at 02:54 AM by Gidiot