Ken Wilber thinking Stage Green is the problem (response to Leo's blog)

[Wyeth]

Saw on Leo's blog that he said Ken is "mistaken" for thinking Stage Green is the problem when it comes to our present-day political situation. I am simply making this post to invite more nuance into the discussion, since I think there is a lot of gold in discussing this topic.

I've read Ken's book "Trump and a Post-Truth World" and he does berate Green heavily and focuses on how Green can improve to ensure a smoother political climate, and just an overall more harmonious path in the development of mankind.

Yet Ken doesn't put the blame entirely on Stage Green, he maintains religious fundamentalism is one of the greatest sources of evil in the world currently, along with capitalist greed.

Yet I believe there is something to be said in particular about Stage Green, which represents the leading edge of consciousness in society today, needing to do a better job of "leading" in the hyper polarized climate today. Much of the rhetoric around anti-this, anti-that, deconstructing/critiquing everything without letting anything new really grow in its place, etc is extremely threatening to the Blue/Orange worldview which is contributing to the political sphere being so heavily polarized.

Basically what I'm saying is that Green's ineffective approaches of communicating with Blue and Orange have massively contributed to the political state today and the election of Trump...this is what Ken is getting at, which is why he eats into Green so much in his books and podcasts...he believes because Green is the most developed group, that they have a responsibility as the "leading edge" to facilitate progress, and they've done a terrible job at this, causing Blue and low Orange to rally behind the devil Trump. 

There is a lot of merit to saying Stage Green is the problem (of course not the ONLY problem)...but let's discuss this. What role does Green play in the present day political sphere? And what can be done to improve the situation?

Edited Monday at 12:37 AM by Wyeth

[Leo Gura]

28 minutes ago, Wyeth said:

Basically what I'm saying is that Green's ineffective approaches of communicating with Blue and Orange have massively contributed to the political state today and the election of Trump...this is what Ken is getting at

This is where I disagree.

There is no appeasing stage Blue and Orange by being nicer to them and bending over backwards for them. They will just demonize Green regardless.

Wilber places too much responsibility on Green while Blue and Orange behave like utter fucking lunatics.

It is a mistake to think that you can talk down a lunatic by being nice to him.

Green needs to behead a few Wall Street capitalists so they get the message.

The problem with all this Integral theory is that it doesn't understand how power works. Orange capitalists will not give up their power, they will try to enslave everyone under it until they are physically put in handcuffs.

The elephant in the room is hyper capitalism, not Green. Integral theory offers no solution to capitalism, instead capitualating to its corruption.

The issue is not culture war academic gender stuff. The issue is that hyper capitalists are robbing trillions and using it to corrupt government. That is what Green needs to fix. Until that is fixed there should be no talk of Yellow or Game B fantasies.

Wilber grossly overestimates the development level of society by focusing too much on the intellectual cutting edge while ignoring the other 90%. THIS is why Trump won. What matters most is that 90% of the population is Blue or Orange. In this condition there should be no talk of Yellow and there should be no blaming of Green because Green is the next stage. Yellow is not the next stage. This is so obvious yet Wilber doesn't see it.

Edited Monday at 01:05 AM by Leo Gura

[Elliott]

Green does not do enough public education or discourse. And they let morons that coalition with them, talk their stupidity too much, they need to rebuke people like AOC.

Edited Monday at 01:08 AM by Elliott

[Wyeth]

@Leo Gura fair enough. When I was writing the post I was trying to think of what Green could do/communicate differently and I couldn't even think of anything that would have major impact, so I just asked a question instead lol. It all doesn't really compute with Blue or Orange anyway

[Wyeth]

@Elliott what's your problem with AOC?

[Elliott]

57 minutes ago, Wyeth said:

@Elliott what's your problem with AOC?

She spreads hate and stupidity; BLM riots, defund the police, Luigi, UBI, free college, reparations,...

Edited Monday at 02:17 AM by Elliott

[Wyeth]

@Elliott I don't think you actually know what she says and stands for dawg, you're way off the mark.

[Wyeth]

@Leo Gura what is your solution then for evolving mankind past this hypercapitalist reality?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Wyeth said:

@Leo Gura what is your solution then for evolving mankind past this hypercapitalist reality?

There is no solution. No human controls or designs evolution.

Hyper capitalism will continue until it collapses from its own contradictions and corruption. And the pain of that cannot be avoided. The solution is playing itself out in slow-motion as we speak.

Edited Monday at 03:58 AM by Leo Gura

[Elliott]

26 minutes ago, Wyeth said:

@Elliott I don't think you actually know what she says and stands for dawg, you're way off the mark.

Nah dawg, listen to the horses ass herself.

26 minutes ago, Wyeth said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez | Officia…

https://www.ocasiocortez.com › issues

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for Congress

Alexandria co-sponsored the College for All Act, a law that will establish tuition-free public college and trade school

 

 

[Wyeth]

@Elliott these are so cherry-picked. AOC is one of the only dems who actually do anything, rebuking her would be one of the worst mistakes the dems could possibly make.

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is where I disagree.

There is no appeasing stage Blue and Orange by being nicer to them and bending over backwards for them. They will just demonize Green regardless.

Wilber places too much responsibility on Green while Blue and Orange behave like utter fucking lunatics.

It is a mistake to think that you can talk down a lunatic by being nice to him.

Green needs to behead a few Wall Street capitalists so they get the message.

The problem with all this Integral theory is that it doesn't understand how power works. Orange capitalists will not give up their power, they will try to enslave everyone under it until they are physically put in handcuffs.

The elephant in the room is hyper capitalism, not Green. Integral theory offers no solution to capitalism, instead capitualating to its corruption.

The issue is not culture war academic gender stuff. The issue is that hyper capitalists are robbing trillions and using it to corrupt government. That is what Green needs to fix. Until that is fixed there should be no talk of Yellow or Game B fantasies.

Wilber grossly overestimates the development level of society by focusing too much on the intellectual cutting edge while ignoring the other 90%. THIS is why Trump won. What matters most is that 90% of the population is Blue or Orange. In this condition there should be no talk of Yellow and there should be no blaming of Green because Green is the next stage. Yellow is not the next stage. This is so obvious yet Wilber doesn't see it.

100%

Especially the parts I bolded.

I noticed this tendency for people who are aware of Integral Theory to treat Green like a brief footnote in human evolution that must be skipped to get to Yellow. It describes a lot of guys on this forum.

Like all the previous phases get 100+ years (thousands in earlier phase, because development is slower) to be the central paradigm of society. But Green is meant to be skipped over in 5 minutes to make way for Yellow.

And what I see is that this desire to skip to Tier 2, is just a reflection of society's general resistance to leaving Orange and going to Green as the incoming phase.

[Breathe]

19 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I noticed this tendency for people who are aware of Integral Theory to treat Green like a brief footnote in human evolution that must be skipped to get to Yellow. It describes a lot of guys on this forum.

100%

I used to be one of them, by the way, until I moved to Portland and met true green folk that actually knew how to think, many of whom I have come to admire.

I still feel that I'm filling into my green shoes. I'll never believe in the woo woo spiritual bullshit that green believes, but I am biased socially and politically, and could care less about yellow.

Right now, I think that orange needs to be held accountable for the mess we are in and I think that some need to pay with their lives.

This kumbaya mentality towards all members of society can piss off. We need greens with bazookas and AKs.

That said, there are also people who know nothing about integral theory or development psychology, that think they hold an enlightened perspective because they see things from multiple perspectives. They claim to be progressive, but demonize woke culture 24/7 as is if it were their job. The enlightened centrist.

Edited Monday at 05:25 AM by Breathe

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I noticed this tendency for people who are aware of Integral Theory to treat Green like a brief footnote in human evolution that must be skipped to get to Yellow. It describes a lot of guys on this forum.

Like all the previous phases get 100+ years (thousands in earlier phase, because development is slower) to be the central paradigm of society. But Green is meant to be skipped over in 5 minutes to make way for Yellow.

Yes, it's absurd how shallowly Green is treated.

[Breathe]

24 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But Green is meant to be skipped over in 5 minutes to make way for Yellow

I'm not sure if this is going to be true for all, but for me it was necessary to be around greens all the time before I came to truly understand them. Or, at the very least, not be repulsed by them. I still don't use pronouns, but I am considering it just because I have some trans friends now and want them to feel supported. At this point, I am tired of hearing the term "woke". I feel blessed because I live in Portland and I think many are going to miss on some good shit out by living in centrist communities.

Go to a green school, join green communities, join a sangha, stay at a monastery, make friends with trans people, etc. I think that's what many on this forum are going to need. We don't change in isolation or by dwelling in echo chambers.

It takes humility to learn from people around you.

[Apparition of Jack]

Green is better for society than Orange because it isn’t greedy as fuck. 
 

Green understands no one can build a society on their own, Green understands that different people have different talents (thus not forcing everyone into grindset mode just to survive), Green understands that destroying the environment to improve society is an oxymoron. 
 

If we truly want to avoid poverty, climate collapse, WW3, genocides, racism, bigotry, suffering, lost human potential, etc etc etc, the world needs Green. It makes perfect sense. Orange has had its day; it’s time for something better.

[Leo Gura]

38 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Orange has had its day

Unfortunately even this isn't true.

Orange is badly needed because 50% of the population still lives paycheck to paycheck, with not enough material security to even have the luxury to care about the environment or trans people.

Our development is so much lower than Wilber says that we haven't even exhausted Orange.

And the Orange stage cannot just be handled by giving people free money and services. Orange is about learning to be an achiever. You can't skip Orange with socialism or UBI. 50% of the population needs to spend 10-20 years just actualizing Orange in themselves. That is our situation.

Edited Monday at 06:21 AM by Leo Gura

[jimwell]

44 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Orange is about learning to be an achiever. You can't skip Orange with socialism or UBI.

Why not?

Suppose 100 years from now we live in a UBI Yellow economic and cultural system. We are still alive and have 5-year-old kids. It means that our kids have skipped traditional Orange stage. They can simply learn the essence of Orange such as accomplishment, logic, reason, etc. in another way. They don't need to experience and learn Orange the way we did. 

[BlueOak]

Because green requires community/collective and most answers or approaches here (anywhere I see discussed) are individualist. Unless you are connecting with more than your own relationship to something, you are not operating in green.

*The very first thing I did in 2011 or so when I started this work, was try to create a group of people acting together, but whenever I raise it, even here, nothing happens at all. Its utter silence, wrapped up in fear, in understandable personal considerations, and hindrances that have been built as a result of acting as individualists for so long.

Edited Monday at 08:26 AM by BlueOak

[Joel3102]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Unfortunately even this isn't true.

Orange is badly needed because 50% of the population still lives paycheck to paycheck, with not enough material security to even have the luxury to care about the environment or trans people.

Our development is so much lower than Wilber says that we haven't even exhausted Orange.

And the Orange stage cannot just be handled by giving people free money and services. Orange is about learning to be an achiever. You can't skip Orange with socialism or UBI. 50% of the population needs to spend 10-20 years just actualizing Orange in themselves. That is our situation.

How do you account for the fact that Green has been around since the 1960s with The Beatles etc that has infiltrated so much culture but never really took over the masses? 
 

Perhaps America needs a national divorce, it just seems unsustainable where you have a good ~30% of the population that basically wants a third world style autocrat in Trump, yet the coastal city folk are so much further evolved than that. I feel like something has gotta give.

Edited Monday at 08:26 AM by Joel3102