Steelmanning Buddhist deconstruction - Emptiness = God

[Arthogaan]

I saw your post @Leo Gura about Roger's Thisdell "you can't spiritually wake up only become lucid" video and this is a great post.

And again I kinda want to come here as a steelman for their pov.

Like when they argue that you cannot have any ontological ground vs you claiming that god is the ultimate ontological ground - I don't really see the difference. I am not sure if they don't but I don't. 

Like, this is what experience of God/Love is for me - total dissolution of any frames, construct, ground.

Like Rogers describing it as ephemeral qualia process of Mind - this is full with mystery and feeling of God for me (maybe thats because i had God realization so I am able to steelman this in this way and they don't really mean it)

Saying God is pure imagination, or saying that everything is the state of consciousness, figment of consciousness (your pov) - this for me is the same (maybe not the same but a different facet of same diamond) realization as buddhist deconstruction and going beyond any frames. This is the same movement of Mind of going infinitely meta and ending up with no ground or frame - and this is the mystical experience of God.

Sunyata/Emptiness = God.

But real emptiness, not reductionistic and still imbued with remnants of materialism. Real emptiness that goes meta even to itself - that gives me a profound feeling and connection to God. 

I agree that they have some weird aversion to this beatifull word God (maybe for good reasons not to make conceptual traps for people) but having gone through both God Realization and buddhist annata I claim that it indeed ends in the same place. Even saying that there is no ontological ultimate ground - if that's the case then THATS THE TRUTH AND THATS THE ULTIMATE ONTOLOGICAL GROUND. So I agree with you that you have to end up at TRUTH. 

And there are unique qualities/feelings to focusing on qualia processing view vs God view.

And the ultimate God includes both of those. As figments of its imagination. Or from their perspectives you could say even qualia processing is a constructed model and even God view is a constructed model.

But that recognition of everything being a model construction - this for me leads exactly to the same mind space as deep contemplation of everything being gods imagination. Just infinite meta.

 

Infinite meta = infinite deconstruction = infinite imagination = God = Love.

 

@Water by the River

[Someone here]

Buddhism Says there is no ground . Leo says the ground is God..which is infinity .which means God is the groundless ground. Its the same .

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

Buddhism Says there is no ground . Leo says the ground is God.

No, the ground for me is the same as for the Buddhist. Consciousness/Mind is emptiness when reduced down.

But realizing God is not about realizing emptiness.

Edited Friday at 01:16 PM by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Arthogaan said:

Sunyata/Emptiness = God

That's not what I'm pointing to when I say God.

Again, of course you can reduce everything down to emptiness, but that's not the same as consciousness of God.

A reductionist mistake is being made. If you are equating God with emptiness you're got grasping the significance of God. You're just conscious of emptiness and calling it God. Which is not what I'm talking about.

Edited Friday at 01:23 PM by Leo Gura

[Someone here]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, the ground for me is the same as for the Buddhist. Consciousness/Mind is emptiness when reduced down.

But realizing God is not about realizing emptiness.

Well what do you think  "God in its purest form " is if not nothingness/pure emptiness/formlessness etc ?

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Well what do you think  "God in its purest form " is if not nothingness/pure emptiness/formlessness etc ?

No, that line of questioning is misguided. Stop trying to reduce it.

It's like I'm trying to get you to recognize the ocean and you're saying, "Oh, H2O, yeah, I know that." No! H2O is not what I mean when I say ocean. If you equate ocean with H2O then you missed the ocean.

God is the ocean, not H2O.

Edited Friday at 01:32 PM by Leo Gura

[Greatnestwithin]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, that line of questioning is misguided. Stop trying to reduce it.

It's like I'm trying to get you to recognize the ocean and you're saying, "Oh, H2O, yeah, I know that." No! H2O is not what I mean when I say ocean. If you equate ocean with H2O then you missed the ocean.

God is the ocean, not H2O.

You need 5meo to see God and infinity. Straight line into It❤️

[Someone here]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, that line of questioning is misguided. Stop trying to reduce it.

It's like I'm trying to get you to recognize the ocean and you're saying, "Oh, H2O, yeah, I know that." No! H2O is not what I mean when I say ocean. If you equate ocean with H2O then you missed the ocean.

God is the ocean, not H2O.

I think what we say when we say "God" is all encompassing. I think  that you are making distinctions between "emptiness" and "God" .

What you are experiencing right now and all that could ever exist is God.

But yea if there is only God... It's neither simple nor complex because it can only be compared to itself. God is beyond distinction but also includes all the distinctions which it imagines. 

[Davino]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

I think what we say when we say "God" is all encompassing. I think  that you are making distinctions between "emptiness" and "God" .

What you are experiencing right now and all that could ever exist is God.

But yea if there is only God... It's neither simple nor complex because it can only be compared to itself. God is beyond distinction but also includes all the distinctions which it imagines. 

One thing is God another is God-consciousness. One thing is gravity another gravity-understanding. Gravity pulls everyone but few grasp it as Newton or Einstein.

[emil1234]

love this debate

[Water by the River]

6 hours ago, Arthogaan said:

@Water by the River

Well, um, our host & hero has started promoting meditation.  Has realized the limits of psychedelics .

Is becoming a nicer human being daily.

More and more humble, benelovent and lovely.

Chapeau!

Less and less self-importance. (Which is btw. the No.1 killer of Awakened Awareness, don't ask me why I am an expert on that... ).

"So yeah... Actualized.org solves the entire problem of epistemology, which is why it's so unique and powerful. It's not just some self-help or spirituality channel, it's an absolute solution to epistemology and ontology. Yeah, it took insane intelligence to solve that. The number of humans on this planet who understand the Infinity of Frame can be counted on one hand." Ok ok, but the trend is in place 

And since I will be going for a business trip to China soon, lets conclude that a bit with the Tao Te Ching:

• "The Master’s power is like this. He lets all things come and go effortlessly, without desire. He never expects results; thus he is never disappointed. He is never disappointed; thus his spirit never grows old. 
• The great Way is easy, yet people prefer the side paths. Be aware when things are out of balance. Stay centered within the Tao.
• The Tao nourishes by not forcing. By not dominating, the Master leads.
• The Master views the parts with compassion, because he understands the whole. His constant practice is humility. He doesn’t glitter like a jewel but lets himself be shaped by the Tao, as rugged and common as a stone. 
• He who defines himself can’t know who he really is. 
• The Master’s power is like this. He lets all things come and go effortlessly, without desire. He never expects results; thus he is never disappointed. He is never disappointed; thus his spirit never grows old. "

 

Singing by the River "as long as ones own imaginations are still annoying, "the" Infinite Mind is still ones teacher" 

 

PS: Now to the actual topic:

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

A reductionist mistake is being made. If you are equating God with emptiness you're got grasping the significance of God. You're just conscious of emptiness and calling it God. Which is not what I'm talking about.

"There is something formless and perfect before the universe was born. It is serene. Empty. Solitary. Unchanging. Infinite. Eternally present. It is the mother of the universe. For lack of a better name, I call it the Tao."

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

God is the ocean, not H2O.

And one can go wave-surfing on the ocean (nearly) forever, have fun, explore, suffer, understand, forget, and so on and on and on. Or just drop the illusion, dissolve in the Ocean (as you guess what ) and acknowledge having always been the ocean emptiness  H20 THAT once more.

And if that dropping happens or not also depends on the soul, and if it has done enough wave-surfing or not. 

"“When there is no desire,
all things are at peace.”"

[emil1234]

@Water by the River so what happens when the soul dissolves in the ocean? merging with universal consciousness, God?

[Arthogaan]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's not what I'm pointing to when I say God.

Again, of course you can reduce everything down to emptiness, but that's not the same as consciousness of God.

A reductionist mistake is being made. If you are equating God with emptiness you're got grasping the significance of God. You're just conscious of emptiness and calling it God. Which is not what I'm talking about.

I totally get your point Leo. But let me continue playing a buddhist devil's advocate.

I would claim that at some point absorption into emptiness reaches the tipping point, at which it paradoxically becomes WHOLE, it does not anymore have this vibe of deconstruction. Even emptiness is empty so it colapses into itself and is whole (like with scepticism colapsing in it's real fruition). 

As you say "you are not grasping the significance of God" - I could argue, you are not grasping the wholeness of emptiness. 

But again, I do agree that most buddhist do not reach this tipping point of absorption. But I intuit that some of the deepest one like Angelo (imho) actually has in his daily experience this sweetness, mystery, hallucination vibe of God realization. He just avoids that word. I can never know that ofc, just a hunch. 

Edited Friday at 06:06 PM by Arthogaan

[Someone here]

@Davino

Nice got it thanks for the analogy . God in itself and whether you are conscious of God are apparently two separate matters .

Point is im god anyways so i can't lose this game even if I tried to 😂. 

I will return back to my godhood even if after a 100000000000000000000 incarnations.

[Breakingthewall]

Emptiness is impossible, since it is, and Being is everything. There is no emptiness; it is simply a circumstantial realization, the absence of definite form. In essence, form and formlessness are indistinguishable from each other. They differ only in appearance, not in substance. So, to say that God is Emptiness is meaningless. God is reality, and reality is. Being is everything. Absolutely everything is in Being, and Being is infinite because it's dimensionless 

 

Edited Friday at 07:37 PM by Breakingthewall

[Hojo]

The problem I think is that buddhist say God is nothing but they dont give the nothingness credit for what it is.Hinduism does it better. Buddhists are right that God is nothing and you can witness it as that but its also infinity and buddhist say no to that. Hindu says God is nothing and that makes him everything so they say God is nothing and infinity.

Its like a Jehovah Witness to Christianity. Buddhism is like Jehovah Witness and Hinduism is like Christianity. One says no fun the other says have all the fun. Buddhism might prepare you better because when you die you HAVE to become a void of nothing forever and you will struggle until you do it. Buddhism is like nothing is happening so no parties no birthdays no holidays just sit there ie Jehova Witness. Hinduism says God is real lets party but there are a few laws God created that you shouldnt stray to far from, there is no permanent hell but bad things can happen. Christianity is like that except they teach their children very bad things like satan and if you masterbate you go to hell. This is completely just trash and will destroy the mind of your child for no reason, before they even get a chance to logically conclude anything.

God is nothing yes but its also an infinite playground for you to play in forever.

The reason they say there is no God is because when you become God there is nothing. Its like being tied up in a dark room you know you want to see but cant you know you want to scream but cant you know you want to hear but cant and you struggle until you forget you want to hear see taste smell. When you are in the void you can be conscious and unconscious. The difference is one you know you are there and the other you dont know you are there but are still looking at it(deep sleep). Imagine life was you woke up from deep sleep and opened your eyes and were still in the deep sleep 'place' and you just sat there. The you forget you are in the deep sleep space but are still looking at it because its all there is. Then you 'wake up' and see you are still in the deep sleep nothing and are looking at it and cant not look at it. Then you forget you are there and are still staring at it but you forget and its just the deep sleep place. You do this over and over again until the deep sleep space 'sleeping' and the deep sleep place 'awake' are one and you dont wake up or go to sleep again and its just that, nothing.

Then you respawn.

God when its God is nothing, it dosent exist, it is nothing, existing. There is literally a simulation 'playing' you, the simulation doesnt have an identity, its identity is whatever you the simulation makes it, from a different dimension of reality.

When you see God as nothing you cant identify it and can only see it when you come back from death. If you didnt come back you wouldnt know, and if you didnt realize what you saw you wouldnt know. If you died and went to the void and became nothing and then turned into a fish you wouldnt know. If you died and went to the void of nothing forgot everything and came back in the same body you can know.

Death can be achieved through dying, deep meditation, psychedelics. The problem with the first one is you might not come back, the other 2 you will guaranteed come back and see.

The void of nothing is coming for us all and can happen at any instant.

Edited Saturday at 02:19 AM by Hojo

[Water by the River]

10 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Emptiness is impossible, since it is, and Being is everything. There is no emptiness; it is simply a circumstantial realization, the absence of definite form. In essence, form and formlessness are indistinguishable from each other. They differ only in appearance, not in substance. So, to say that God is Emptiness is meaningless. God is reality, and reality is. Being is everything. Absolutely everything is in Being, and Being is infinite because it's dimensionless 

Very good.

Ones True Being. Can't loose it. Only mistake it with an illusion that was never really the case.

Since yours truly has  his chinese weeks... :

"There is something formless and perfect before the universe was born. It is serene. Empty. Solitary. Unchanging. Infinite. Eternally present. It is the mother of the universe. For lack of a better name, I call it the Tao."

"The Tao is the infinite, common source; eternally present within you. No beginning, no end. The essence of wisdom. Just be."

and Huang Po: "All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. This Mind, which is without beginning is unborn and indestructible."

 

And one can call "It" Tao, Buddha-Mind, God, Absolute, Infinite Mind, Raspberry, whatever, even emptiness (although this is also a state-experience that comes waaay before Full Enlightenment). But then one has to immediately say something like form is emptiness and emptiness is form and more important: the Absolute is Reality itself, or else one may just point to a void/causal state, of which there are many.... and these states can be had by a separate-self-illusion without understanding Reality/Totality/Ones True Being. Short Form: Talk about emptiness or experiencing emptiness is in no way already Full Enlightenment. Kensho vs. Satori.

This is a nuance that our host either hasn't gotten yet, or deliberately tends to overlook/under-emphasize, in order to bash some more non-enlightened Buddhist resulting in mucho-grande-marketing (sorry, couldn't help : ) highlight the fact that each Full Enlightenment is expressed in the relative form of the relative being (or rather hangover by then) which had had that realization that it really is the Totality. Of the course the Alien tends to see a bit more of the waves of the Ocean, but the Alien (and all there is and ever possibly could be) is still ones True Self.... Infinite and such.

 

Delighting in the fact that one doesn't need a visa anymore for business trips to China and that neither the Tao The Ching nor Huang Po has any remaining valid copyrights left ... by the River

 

PS: @emil1234 I will answer your questions in the next days

[ExploringReality]

Is sunyata or thusness related to God? And how so? How is Nothingness related to God? 

Leo you are a pure ball of infinite intelligence. Would you say you are channeling higher consciousness through your mind to generate these responses?

Infinity and Nothingness are interconnected but not the same. What is God? You can keep asking that question and go further in understanding and direct experience of God.

[Arthogaan]

1 hour ago, ExploringReality said:

Is sunyata or thusness related to God?

Sunyata/emptiness focuses on this ephemeral quality of any manifestation, nothing is real just appearing due to causes and conditions, empty of substance, empty of INHERENT being.

Emptiness is not about nothingness. I would claim emptiness is pointing to this infinite interconnectivity, ephemerality, hologram-like-ity.

For me it's the same like saying that everything is imagination - pure flexibility of consciousness to appear as any figment. 

And even consciousness is just another substanceless designation that we reify. God is beyond it. Emptiness is beyond it.

[Leo Gura]

Is H2O related to ocean?