Doctor vs. Anti-vaxxers

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

They are criticizing sceince from below, not above.

Just because you're vegan or healthy doesn't mean you know how to reason about national health policy. These are totally different things. 60% of the population is obese and does not eat healthy and you are not going to change that by giving them a lecture about organic food or getting flouride out of the water. You need solutions that saves their lives when shit hits the fan.

These people are so stupid that they don't understand that the only reason they and their families didn't die without vaccines is because they got lucky. These people think God and organic food will protect them. This is pre-rational thinking and does not rise to the level of science.

Understanding vaccines requires statistical scientific reasoning, which 60% of the population isn't capable of. Which is why they are ripe for RFK's bullshit facts and conspiracy theories.

This is what happens when people don't learn STEM rationality. They people fundamentally don't understand what science is or how it works.

On this parameter I agree. they don't really know how to advance the health of society effectively.

What I do notice, and what many of them intuitively recognize, is that they give much more credit to the body's intelligence and its inherent ability to maintain health when given the right conditions (a very common statement among those people).

This is often overlooked by Western medicine, which tends to view the body as a simpler machine, believing it knows better than the body itself what it needs, and manipulating it regularly, which can often make many conditions worse. This is why I say that many of the more natural-minded individuals have good points from above, and they tend to be critical of everything Western, including vaccines.

Of course, they don’t fully tap into the complexity of healing and the multi-layered nature of the process, but overall, I tend to respect those groups far more than the mainstream Western medicine approach about Health, in general.

Surely among the anti vaxxer they are also the very irrational ones even among such groups, what I don't deny, but I make here a distinction between what I see as two different groups essentially who criticise vaccines.

Edited April 11 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Elliott said:

I've found a lot of anti vaxxers got the covid vaccine, at least boomers.

Anti-vaxxers are incoherent. They will get the vax out of fear or comformity but then also badmouth it and blame their personal health issues on it.

Like, I got the vax but then my ass started to itch so vaccines are bad and Big Pharma lied to me. If vaccines were safe my ass wouldn't itch. I'm not even allowed to sue Big Phrama for my itchy ass. Corruption!!!

They reason like children.

Edited April 11 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

What I do notice, and what many of them intuitively recognize, is that they give much more credit to the body's intelligence and its inherent ability to maintain health when given the right conditions (a very common statement among those people).

This is often overlooked by Western medicine

It's overlooked because nature's intelligence will not save you when you get a serious, life-threatening disorder.

Millions of people died from Covid. Nature's intelligence killed them. But anti-vaxxers don't have enough intelligence to understand that.

Edited April 11 by Leo Gura

[Nemra]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Millions of people died from Covid. Nature's intelligence killed them. But anti-vaxxers don't have enough intelligence to understand that.

It'll be an ironic way to die as an anti-vaxxer.

Edited April 11 by Nemra

[Nivsch]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Nature's intelligence killed them. But anti-vaxxers don't have enough intelligence to understand that.

They will say to you that if ones body is really healthy (from Natural lifestyle) it will much less get harmed by viruses.

I admit here I am much more siding with their views because I also felt on me personally the problems of western approach, though I am aware of the complexity (life saving treatments, emergency and so on when Western medicine is very important) so I will try to challenge the discussion with the natural-minded perspective when I think they are closer to the truth.

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

nature's intelligence will not save you when you get a serious, life-threatening disorder.

But Western Medicine also won't know how to treat the root of their disorder and will musk it with pills instead. 

Edited April 11 by Nivsch

[Nemra]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's overlooked because nature's intelligence will not save you when you get a serious, life-threatening disorder.

They're waiting for their beloved almighty God to save them.

[Leo Gura]

All 3 are true:

Western medicine is corrupt

Anti-vaxxers are corrupt and ignorant.

Vaccines are needed for public health.

Edited April 12 by Leo Gura

[Terell Kirby]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Epistemic Nitwits.

Lmao

[Yimpa]

Nice jacket.

Thank you!

[D2sage]

Proper food is needed for the public health.

Can't eat vaccines and expect to solve the puzzle.

Why is Japan on top of the world for public health?  The traditional Japanese diet is largely fresh and unprocessed, with very few refined ingredients and sugar. Low obesety aswell compared to America.'

Much televizion and news has corrupted both pro and anti vaxxers.

Edited April 12 by D2sage

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, D2sage said:

Proper food is needed for the public health.

Can't eat vaccines and expect to solve the puzzle.

This is confusing two different issues.

Vaccines were never designed to make you healthy. They are designed to prevent viral spread.

Vaccines will not solve poverty either.

Edited April 12 by Leo Gura

[D2sage]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is confusing two different issues.

Vaccines were never designed to make you healthy. They are designed to prevent viral spread.

Touché.

 

Covid was spreading despite the mass vaccination. This is because it can take more than 20 years for a vaccine to go from development to market.

The covid vaccins were mostly for reducing  hospitilazation and death.

 

Edited April 12 by D2sage

[Basman]

"Facebook epistemology" is the perfect word to describe prerational thinking online.

Edited April 14 by Basman

[Nemra]

7 minutes ago, Basman said:

"Facebook epistemology"

Hahaha...

[Basman]

Facebook epistemology could explain the pit mommy BS as well (which also happens to coincide with anti-vaxx, go figure). They can't distinguish between liking their own pitbull and what is good for public safety.

Edited April 15 by Basman

[Nivsch]

On 12.4.2025 at 0:36 AM, Leo Gura said:

These people think God, nature, and organic food will protect them. This is pre-rational thinking and does not rise to the level of science.

I thought about it today and it actually works similarly to what you say about the main religions. The pioneers had high awareness but the masses took their words and misinterpreted them into a dichotomic thinking and actions and this what happens in those groups today.

Natural-minded people had preceded science in many things. They have thought about intermittent fasting, microbiom, grounding, avoiding processed food, body-mind connection, the problem with added sugar and many more things which on them science only started talking much later.

On one hand its true that many of the people in these groups, perhaps more than I thought, are just like the masses who take those principles as were mere computer scripts, but in the other hand I think it is fair to say that there are maybe like 10-20% in those groups who are serious people in stage Green+ who criticise science from above and have some good takes, even if only on nuances, also on vaccines including covid.

Edited April 14 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

They have thought about intermittent fasting, microbiom, grounding, avoiding processed food, body-mind connection, the problem with added sugar

That's all fine and good.

But that is not anti-vax.

You can do all the holistic health stuff and still get a vaccine.

Edited April 15 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's all fine and good.

But that is not anti-vax.

You can do all the holistic health stuff and still get a vaccine.

Yes but even the serious people among those groups who write more in depth on those health issues were more suspicious and have complex views on vaccines too to my impression especially covid this is my point.

Edited April 15 by Nivsch

[D2sage]

Why would you not be suspicious if Pfizer got caught lying about their tests during Phase 1 or 2? They even went to court about this.

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

  8 hours ago, Nivsch said:

They have thought about intermittent fasting, microbiom, grounding, avoiding processed food, body-mind connection, the problem with added sugar

Seems like you dont know jack about health and the relation between gut health and overall wellbeing. 

People should be sus about you.

Are all Americans so emotionally attached to whoever takes a vaccine or not? Like, calm down and fix your shit first and foremost.

Edited April 15 by D2sage