What are the odds that you, an average dude, is Tier 2? Not very high.

[BlueOak]

It's also much easier to just go into a lazy green pattern for casual conversation, or stick on an orange, blue or red fear rather than address something. Rather than develop out a detailed answer to a very green take, or face that fear in a mature way.

19 hours ago, Nivsch said:

The opposite - investigate those fears and work with them directly. This isn't limiting but what you need to develop further.

:). Okay. Thank you. 

Can't avoid and sidestep the tension or anxiety in my stomach that comes from running a business (or whatever new endeavor) forever then. My feet banging up and down restlessly, and my stomach carrying whatever pattern was put in the nervous system to generate it. That's what's really the root. Back to it and integration work.
 

Edited April 13 by BlueOak

[soos_mite_ah]

On 4/12/2025 at 1:56 PM, Emerald said:

And then, Stage Green is the comfort zone for women because all phases before it are quite hellish, unsafe, and disempowering to women. And moving to Yellow and Turquoise requires looking at some really ugly things that are very disempowering to women. So, it's a sticking point for women.

Can you expand on this more please? 

And apologies on being late to the discussion, I just check this website here and there lol 

[Lyubov]

Most people on this forum are tier 2. Tier 2 is easy to spot when you do self inquiry. Law of attraction. You start to recognize it and attract it into your life. 

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Can you expand on this more please? 

And apologies on being late to the discussion, I just check this website here and there lol 

Sure. 

With Stage Green, there tends to be a very egalitarian focus... which is an improvement from the hegemony of the previous phases. And women especially are freed from a very narrow context and things that stand in the way of their individuation... which is suppressed on the level of gender in Blue and all phases before, and is suppressed on the level of Femininity in Orange and all phases before. 

So, with Stage Blue and before, (in most societal contexts) women are not thought of as fully sovereign individuals that should have power in the societal structure. And the Feminine itself is very Masculinity-washed stripped down to just what is necessary to keep society going.

And traditional Femininity is a lot narrower than traditional Masculinity.

Then, with Stage Orange... there is more of a sense of "Women can compete too"... as long as she strips herself of the narrow context of traditional Femininity... but without any awareness of a deeper Feminine energetic reality. And this Feminine stripping feels like relief because REAL Masculine individuation is on offer for women... which allows us to expand our horizons.

But the only way to expand is to become Masculine and to get rid of the Feminine... which is partially true. If your only Femininity on offer is traditional Femininity, then you do have to strip yourself of it like a hermit crab that has outgrown its shell.

And Stage Orange women tend to be very anti-Feminine in all ways but physical appearance... both anti trad Fem AND anti real Fem, because Femininity is ONLY seen as a limiter of potential from Stage Orange.

With Stage Green, the superiority of Masculinity itself starts to be a questioned... though it still isn't aware of and doesn't embrace the deep Feminine.

And there is more of a sense that gender is a construct (which is partially true)... and that there is no innate distinction between men and women. And it questions gender roles beyond the question of "Who can compete in the workplace?" And it opens up to more than one category of gender and more than one category of relationship preference or structure.

And it is critical of all the patterns that have created so much oppression in the past... which is liberating and freeing for women. And it starts to unintentionally begin to incorporate some Feminine principled values without thinking of them as such... things like community, non-hierarchical thinking, inclusion, ecological focus, etc.

So, it is like women, gay people, trans people, disabled people, and members of minority religious/ethnic communities (specifically who have transcended stage blue) find refuge from the collective wounds of millennia of oppression into the present day. 

And since Green arises VERY close to Orange and Blue, there is still this societal threat of going backwards and being shoved back in the trad Fem box... like a fish that's already grown too big for such a narrow fishtank.

There is also a deeper conditioning from Blue and Orange to see Femininity and women as inferior AND to see Masculinity and men as superior, because they are from the vantage point of Blue and Orange. 

So, once a woman gets to Green, it's a sense of escaping and shutting the door forever on all the pain and Feminine wounding from past generations of women.

But in order to get to Turquoise (which is quite Feminine), you have to use Yellow to start to question the reasons why women have been oppressed for many millennia. And a lot of uncomfortable questions have to be asked.

And there is a need to integrate the Feminine and to recognize the general differences between men and women from a higher perspective.. while these differences have always been used to disempower women in generations past.

And Stage Orange men who are resistant to Green and who want women to go back in the little box tend to make this exploration of the Feminine and the deep collective wounds of the Feminine feel even more threatening. 

 

Edited April 14 by Emerald

[soos_mite_ah]

12 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And since Green arises VERY close to Orange and Blue, there is still this societal threat of going backwards and being shoved back in the trad Fem box... like a fish that's already grown too big for such a narrow fishtank.

I think the trad fem stuff that's especially trending right now is an interesting and nuanced topic. The problem with aesthetics, as opossed to subcultures, is that anyone can latch on to the image and performance of an aesthetic and morph it according to their values. 

For example, I think a lot of the trad fem stuff stared out with women wanting to be not see their femininity as inferior, wanting to educate themselves on holistic medicine, and women trying to reject the hustle and grind culture that the girl boss feminism brought on in the 2010s. Which is all pretty Green leaning. But then, there are people who saw the trad fem stuff and shifted in more of a Blue direction where they became very religious and puritan or they took it in a more Orange direction in a trophy wife kind of route. 

I wrote about this in my journal posts and basically, I do think there is some movement towards green here but orange and blue co-opted the language of green to come of more progressive than they really are if you're interested in checking it out by any chance. 

And I think you're right about a fish that's already grown too bigg for a narrow fish tank analogy. There are some people who really romanticize this notion of a man taking control of the finances so they don't have to work because they grew up with mothers who were exhausted from doing all the work at home while working a full time job. But those people don't remember what things were actually like for women who had no choice but to submit to a husband because they couldn't have their own bank account with a father's or husband's permission. I don't think we can go back that far without having major consequences because with the exception of our current ego backlash, generally speaking the the fish few to big for the previous fishtank. 

I think truly green feminism, while it can still incorporate aspects of the trad wife stuff, also has a focus of tackling the issues with late stage capitalism because that's a way to include women in the global south who are much more exploited for their labor. 

24 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But in order to get to Turquoise (which is quite Feminine), you have to use Yellow to start to question the reasons why women have been oppressed for many millennia. And a lot of uncomfortable questions have to be asked.

I guess that's what I'm wondering, what are the uncomfortable questions that one needs to ask? Can you elaborate with some more examples? 

[Elliott]

I don't think you people have even studied these models.

[Emerald]

25 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

I guess that's what I'm wondering, what are the uncomfortable questions that one needs to ask? Can you elaborate with some more examples? 

I can definitely see that Stage Green and even some subtle elements of later phases would be reflected in the "Soft Life" influencers. I think there's definitely something there to be mined.

But as someone who was raised fully in Orange and questioning all of this prior to recent trad wife internet trends and prior to soft life, there were very uncomfortable questions that I needed to ask myself to go deeper.

Like 15 years ago, when I was 20 years old, I was pretty deep in Stage Orange but also had a smattering of Stage Green as it enabled by Stage Orange ambitions... where I saw Masculinity and Femininity as purely socially constructed. But ALL of my values were Masculine values. And I only saw value in the appearance of Femininity without valuing anything of the Feminine principle.

And when I tried Ayahuasca for the first time, at age 20, it opened up my awareness to a deeper Femininity that didn't have very much to do with the social constructs around Femininity. It was just in the night and in the plants... and within myself.

Then, when I was back in my usual frame of mind... I went back into the usual Masculine values. But I was trying to "get back" to the Feminine.

But it brought me right directly into a lot of wounding that caused me to repress the Feminine in the first place... and that repression is collective. 

Progress has been made over the past 15 years, for sure. But there is still a collective repression of the Feminine... and a belief that the Feminine needs to be dominated and controlled... and suppressed.

So, to access the Feminine... I needed to dive directly into my biggest fears and wounds around the Feminine.

And that means with pure open-minded curiosity and asking questions like the following...

• Is it natural for women to be oppressed and disempowered?
• Is it bad for society if women are empowered? If so, why and under what circumstance? And if not, why and under what circumstances?
• Why do women tend to prefer being submissive in the bedroom? Is that an indicator of what women want in the societal sense?
• If women are designed to be oppressed, is my desire for agency and autonomy a reflection of trauma and societal illness?
• Why has the oppression of women been so widespread for so many millennia if it isn't the way that it's designed to be?
• Why are women built with weaker bodies and men with stronger bodies if it isn't female nature to be disempowered?

It's these kinds of questions that I spent a lot of my twenties really deep in contemplation about... as it was these that were keeping me from opening my consciousness up to my own Feminine side. 

And given that these questions directly tongue the wounds of the Feminine, it helps to connect with that which has been rejected, repressed, and denied as soon as women can escape the old shackles.

Once the feeling states are activated that these questions bring to the surface, that's where connection to the wounded Feminine can be found. And is by sinking into those wounds that you find the lost power that has been stripped from the Feminine for many millennia.

So, it's really just asking the most potentially disempowering questions and playing a kind of internal devil's advocate with yourself to explore the wounds and get more clarity about where these patterns actually come from and to embrace what has been rejected and marginalized.

[soos_mite_ah]

@Emerald Hey Emerald. I'm looking to contemplate these questions more but I thought I'd jot down some initial thoughts for the sake of discussion. I'm looking forwards to hearing your thoughts and feedback. 

 

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

• Is it natural for women to be oppressed and disempowered?

My answer to that is no. I don’t think any form of oppression is natural, whether it’s along the lines of race, gender, sexuality, class, etc. These are man made systems, that create man made problems, that are solved by man made solutions. If something was inherent to human nature, we wouldn’t have to make so many systems to enforce what already comes natural to us. Nature is diverse and very unpredictable especially when it comes to humans. It isn’t inherently patriarchal or matriarchal rather the way that a society originally forms is largely dictated by the material conditions that enable survival in a particular environment.

Honestly, I don’t mean to sound like I’m trying to pick a fight, but I feel like this question can have the same vibe of eugenicists in the 1800s who would argue if it was natural for Black people and Asian people to be oppressed.

 

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

• Is it bad for society if women are empowered? If so, why and under what circumstance? And if not, why and under what circumstances?

I think generally speaking, it’s good for society for women to be empowered in the aim to create a more egalitarian and just society because women’s rights are human rights. And when human rights are strengthened and expanded, that is a win for everyone, not just the marginalized.

However, I do think that in some instances there is a real danger for introducing something too much or too soon which can lead to some nasty ego backlashes. For example, South Korea has greatly developed economically, politically, and socially from the 1950s before the Korean War. Hell, prior to the Korean war, South Korea was seen as the poorer Korea compared to the north which is an absurd statement to utter in 2025. Since then, women have made great progress regarding having personal independence such as when it comes to participating in the work force and being just as if not more educated than men due to having to score higher on exams just to get the same opportunities as men. While the country has made great strides in their economy and their infrastructure to match other first world countries, socially, it’s taking some time for them to catch up. There was a lot of change within a generation or two and as a result, South Korea has a really bad incel problem which is affecting things from women’s personal safety to declining birth rates.

Despite the bad incel problem, I don’t think it’s a mistake for South Korea to give more empowerment to women. I don’t believe that women should slow down their fight for equality and their well being due to fragile male egos. Nevertheless, accelerationism in any aspect of development, even when it comes to women’s rights, isn’t always the most sustainable pace.

Additionally, I think this goes along with the anti-acceleration argument, that we cannot go into countries and force them to develop before their time. The language of empowerment can also be co-opted to perpetuate dangerous colonial dynamics. For example, one of the arguments the U.S. state department used to invade Afghanistan is that the women need to freed. Let’s be so for real, this was largely a tool to frame the fact that we were sticking our nose where it doesn’t belong in a positive light so that the average person can justify this. And what happened as a result? From the time we invaded to the time we pulled out, Afghanistan was left as a bigger mess than it was previously. It’s like stabbing someone, which already causes a lot of damage, and then taking the knife out as if you’re helping, so that the person is left to bleed out and die.

Another example of colonial dynamics co-opting the language of women’s liberation is how a lot of European countries had a “white savior” complex where they believed that by colonizing other countries that they are bringing civilization to them and are freeing their women. I’ll use India as an example. A lot of British colonizers believed that South Asian women were particularly oppressed by South Asian men. This was done to villainize South Asian men as more brutish than the British man. Not to mention, they were making these claims during the Victorian Era and we can’t exactly say that the Victorian Era British woman was particularly empowered. Basically, they were pointing the figure at the real patriarchal issues that were present in South Asia without realizing or owning up to their own hypocrisy. You could’ve also made the argument that South Asian women were more empowered compared to European women pre-colonization because they didn’t have the same puritan beliefs around sexuality and weren’t sexualized in the same way due to a lack of exposure to Christianity.

My point is, what is considered empowering for women and what to do about that cross culturally is a delicate balance in terms of understanding your own biases and to what aim you’re using empowerment. Women’s empowerment in the Afghanistan example was a marketing tactic to justify our atrocities. Women’s empowerment in the India example was an exercise of hypocrisy due to the fact that people weren’t thinking about empowerment in an intersectional lens where gender politics intermingled with race and religion.

 

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

• Why do women tend to prefer being submissive in the bedroom? Is that an indicator of what women want in the societal sense?

I think that parsing out what is and isn’t authentic to people in the bedroom is a deeply personal topic. As a result, it’s difficult to parse out what is someone’s natural desires vs what is conditioning. I don’t think that being submissive bedroom indicates someone wanting to be submissive in real life no more than thinking that someone who likes mafia romance novels wants and element of that in real life. I think Contrapoints does a very comprehensive analysis of this dynamic.

But if a 2-3 hour long video isn’t your cup of tea at this moment, I also think it’s fascinating that your political leanings can correlate with certain kinks you have. I just thought that this was a very funny (but also insightful) video in the way that it draws correlations from values and political leanings (which is lets be real a large product of socialization) and kink. 

 

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

• If women are designed to be oppressed, is my desire for agency and autonomy a reflection of trauma and societal illness?

I don’t think that women are designed to be oppressed. If we were designed to be oppressed, we wouldn’t have the desire for agency. It goes back to my original point that if something was so natural, we wouldn’t have to make a bunch systems and laws to enforce it.  

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

• Why has the oppression of women been so widespread for so many millennia if it isn't the way that it's designed to be?

I think it’s a logical fallacy of sorts to assert that just because something has been around for a long time, that means that it is natural and right. Modern day racism has been around for the past 500 or so years due to the discovery of the new world and slave trade. I’m not saying that racism was invented in the 1500s, there has always been a form of tribalism and warring states. But I am saying that the racism and colorism we see now, isn’t the same as the discrimination people faced in the Roman Empire. The height of the Roman empire extended to north Africa and the middle east. I highly doubt that what we think of as the European or white members of the Roman Empire had something against the Middle Eastern members of the Roman Empire because white supremacy wasn’t invented yet. Sure, there was again, tribalism and colorism that was largely due to classism, but it wasn’t modern racism.

Similarly, just because modern patriarchy has been around for longer than 500 years, that doesn’t mean that it’s natural just because it old. If anything, that notion that patriarchy is old and natural is part of what keeps us complacent. I know there is this narrative of men being the hunters and women being gatherers and nurturers, but this is a gross oversimplification. Studies show that even when we were in nomadic groups that people mostly got their nutrition from gathering in a lot of places. As a result, it can be inferred that both men and women were gatherers. Even when hunting was necessary, people would go out in mixed packs judging by different skeletons that were uncovered. It wasn’t just men who were doing the hunting. And plus, it goes without mentioning that the modern day nuclear family and “traditional” (really 1950s) gender roles weren’t how things functioned for a large chunk of human history and that the roles of men and women were much more blurred back when we lived in villages.

I can't exactly say why modern patriarchy came about (I would need to look more into that) but I can say that things like colonization has made it more widespread to where it is seen as the default.  

 

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

• Why are women built with weaker bodies and men with stronger bodies if it isn't female nature to be disempowered?

I think the extent of which women are the weaker sex is exacerbated by modern beauty standards and femininity. The stereotype that women are less strong and shorter than men is exaggerated. There are plenty of women who are 5’7 and a 160lbs and plenty of men who are the same. And unfortunately, those women are looked at as humongous and are told to be more like other women who are 5’0 and 100lbs and those men are told that they’re waaay too short and they need to bulk up at the gym. And when these standards are perpetuated and internalized through self-policing, we tend to steer away from what is natural. I think that if more women did strength training as opposed to starving themselves and doing exercises focusing on losing weight so they don’t get “bulky” and if more men weren’t shamed for a lack of muscle mass, the divides would be smaller. Funny enough, I’m 5’2 and roughly 150lbs and my boyfriend is 6’2” and also about 150lbs. Apart from the height difference, we have similar strength levels at the gym when doing various exercises lol.

Nevertheless, while I do think that the degree of which women are smaller and weaker than men is exaggerated, I do think there is some truth to that due to natural sexual dimorphism. Women do have higher healthy body fat percentages due to hormonal regulations and so that we are able to carry a pregnancy to term. And as a result, even if a woman weighs similar to a man, it’s less likely that she has the same muscle mass. However, I think strength can be subjective. Sure, men have more muscle mass and more upper body strength, but women have a whole lot more lower body strength and the ability to reproduce. In other words, I think it evens out lol on a biological level and as a result, it doesn’t justify the “female nature to be disempowered.”

I also think that asserting that weaker bodies = nature to be disempowered is more rooted in creating a narrative for out brains to make sense of the world rather than inherent. Why does weaker bodies have to mean to be disempowered? Why is our brain creating that meaning and narrative? Because we can make the same arguement in the animal kingdom where mankind as a whole is pretty weak physically in that we can't fly, we can't run super fast, and we cannot see with the same precision as other species. But we have a different narrative in that situation where we aren't out here asserting that out weaker bodies means that we are disempowered in the face of other animals. 

[Emerald]

@soos_mite_ah These are well-thought-out answers to the questions. I would answer many of them the same way if I were coming at this exercise from an intellect-based point of view.

But the important thing about the contemplation is more about connecting to a deeply vulnerable and disempowered feeling state, rather than answering outright from the intellect and the current intellectual frameworks you operate through.

Think of these questions more as a vehicle through which to enter the collective Feminine wound of powerlessness and being stripped of personal sovereignty than something to be answered with the intellect.

Those mind-based answers will bring you up further into a state of relative empowerment and understanding... and a comfort zone in the status quo of your frame of mind.

But deeper levels of Feminine integration and unearthing of the Feminine power comes from allowing yourself to descend into the powerlessness and a tonguing of the collective Feminine wounds... which requires a kind of self-negation within the exercise.

Like, imagine yourself as a being that is designed to be oppressed and marginalized... and the feelings that evokes if you knew that to be true about yourself as a woman. 

And given that societies have historically been built from the sacrifice of women's individuation and power up until fairly recently, it doesn't seem to be a bug... but to be a feature at earlier phases in human development that society is built upon the foundation of TONS of human sacrifice, particularly with regard to female sovereignty. 

And there is nothing in nature that says nature won't screw over one sex over the other. Think of the male praying mantis. They just get eaten after sex. So, things are naturally imbalanced between the sexes in that case with that species. And perhaps, this is just part of our nature that women are marginalized into a state of disempowerment. 

To be clear, my view is the women's empowerment and Feminine integration is something very natural... but only possible with enough societal development. And before society develops enough, women's power, individuation, sovereignty, and sense of self were purely sacrificial lambs to make the society function.

But in the exercise, it's about immersing yourself in the unprocessed powerlessness associated with womanhood and Femininity... and thousands of years of female and Feminine disempowerment and sacrifice of selfhood/subjecthood, which all people are hurting from at the deepest level.

There are many ugly things are features of humanity.. which we are only very recently starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel from with the dawning of Stage Green. Hence why it's a safe zone... and why it's difficult to transcend for women. But it's also why many men (especially white heterosexual cisgendered men who have hierarchical viewpoints on human value) want to skip Green altogether, and they end up just stuck in Orange.

So, this emotional exercise tests your limits and pries open the doorway to many Feminine individual and collective Shadows. Only then, can Feminine power actually be integrated into society.

Edited April 14 by Emerald

[Nivsch]

19 hours ago, BlueOak said:

comes from running a business

This is something you really passionate about?

[AION]

I don’t think everybody’s brain is capable of SD yellow. Especially after one has reached a certain age it becomes more difficult to rearrange the brain to an integral structure. It requires a lot of connections. Even on this forum it is very rare to see. There are obviously a lot of people with influencers of SD yellow while being SD green as base. Having SD yellow as a base is a different game. 

Edited April 14 by AION

[BlueOak]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

This is something you really passionate about?

I'm on relief not joy sadly, but I'm following teal's advice on this one. Which is if you don't know your joy, you move in the direction of relief. 

For me that's a business which allows me the freedom to move where I want to move and work when I want to work. I've been static in one small town all my life.

The part I am struggling with and recently saw some insight on, was being construct aware. Balancing generating enough pain/tension to motivate myself to make a change without trashing my current experience I am in unnecessarily. And honestly, I don't feel my current job is terrible, the people are nice, but its static and not something I want to do forever, it doesn't pay enough to have a girlfriend or family. (I am back on this micro cycle again! LOL)

So I try business after business, and here we are; i'm about to put down the mouse/keyboard and go back to another one.



 

Edited April 14 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

2 hours ago, AION said:

I don’t think everybody’s brain is capable of SD yellow. Especially after one has reached a certain age it becomes more difficult to rearrange the brain to an integral structure. It requires a lot of connections. Even on this forum it is very rare to see. There are obviously a lot of people with influencers of SD yellow while being SD green as base. Having SD yellow as a base is a different game. 

It really depends how actively you are learning all your life, as we age, there is a deterioration but its balanced out by health, diet, stress relief and what they call cognitive reserve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_reserve

TBH as you age a lot of your connections die, a lot of what you relate to ceases to be. So the only we you can hold many of them as real is to lie to yourself as you age. This actually clears the way for your overall development, if you are true to yourself instead.

Edited April 14 by BlueOak

[soos_mite_ah]

21 hours ago, Emerald said:

These are well-thought-out answers to the questions. I would answer many of them the same way if I were coming at this exercise from an intellect-based point of view.

But the important thing about the contemplation is more about connecting to a deeply vulnerable and disempowered feeling state, rather than answering outright from the intellect and the current intellectual frameworks you operate through.

That makes sense. There's a difference between intellectually understanding certain topics versus emotionally integrating lessons to where you move to tier 2. 

21 hours ago, Emerald said:

Think of these questions more as a vehicle through which to enter the collective Feminine wound of powerlessness and being stripped of personal sovereignty than something to be answered with the intellect.

Those mind-based answers will bring you up further into a state of relative empowerment and understanding... and a comfort zone in the status quo of your frame of mind.

But deeper levels of Feminine integration and unearthing of the Feminine power comes from allowing yourself to descend into the powerlessness and a tonguing of the collective Feminine wounds... which requires a kind of self-negation within the exercise.

Like, imagine yourself as a being that is designed to be oppressed and marginalized... and the feelings that evokes if you knew that to be true about yourself as a woman. 

Noted. That's good insight in order to go deeper with the topics you have presented. I appreciate this

21 hours ago, Emerald said:

And given that societies have historically been built from the sacrifice of women's individuation and power up until fairly recently, it doesn't seem to be a bug... but to be a feature at earlier phases in human development that society is built upon the foundation of TONS of human sacrifice, particularly with regard to female sovereignty. 

And there is nothing in nature that says nature won't screw over one sex over the other. Think of the male praying mantis. They just get eaten after sex. So, things are naturally imbalanced between the sexes in that case with that species. And perhaps, this is just part of our nature that women are marginalized into a state of disempowerment. 

I like the way that you expressed this point. I think one of the issues with stage Green with their moral relativism is the way that they put everything on an even playing field (i.e. thinking all cultures are equal). Which isn't all bad. It's a necessary step to see all people and cultures as equal in value to combat the prejudices in the previous stage. However, this can also lead to a loss of nuance which can muddy the waters in various evaluations. I feel like part of the reason I didn't fall victim to the rising trend of trad wives is because I was able to see the way that the various stages interpreted it and how they are co-opting the aesthetic and life style thanks to Spiral Dynamics. 

At the same time, I do believe that if you don't have a solid foundation of Green, it's very easy to use Sprial Dynamics as a tool to further reinforce prejudice and be quite ableist towards people. For example, while lots of places in the Middle East range from Purple to Blue, it's a fucked up assertion to say that people who live there are some how lesser in value and less human due to their sprial stage. It also ignores the way that the reason lots of regions regress into Purple and Red is due to western interference and destabilization. Like of course some people are going to gravitate toward violent ideologies after their familes were blown up and they have nothing to lose. But that doesn't mean that those people are any less human and that these populations don't deserve aid to rebuild. If anything, that's the way to move up the spiral, by getting your basic needs met first. 

And needing to get your basic needs met first relates to your notion in the way that patriarchy is feature rather than a bug of earlier human development. I think saying that in the context of this conversation and your points above is different from the stage Blue argument that a lot of eugenicists made about how women and POC are genetically inferior and are inclined to subserviance in order to further reinforce existing power structures. 

21 hours ago, Emerald said:

To be clear, my view is the women's empowerment and Feminine integration is something very natural... but only possible with enough societal development. And before society develops enough, women's power, individuation, sovereignty, and sense of self were purely sacrificial lambs to make the society function.

But in the exercise, it's about immersing yourself in the unprocessed powerlessness associated with womanhood and Femininity... and thousands of years of female and Feminine disempowerment and sacrifice of selfhood/subjecthood, which all people are hurting from at the deepest level.

There are many ugly things are features of humanity.. which we are only very recently starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel from with the dawning of Stage Green. Hence why it's a safe zone... and why it's difficult to transcend for women. But it's also why many men (especially white heterosexual cisgendered men who have hierarchical viewpoints on human value) want to skip Green altogether, and they end up just stuck in Orange.

I also think that what is considered feminine and masculine can be arbitary. The sun can be seen as masculine in some cultures whlie in other cultures it's seen as feminine. I myself come from a culture where softness, daintiness, and vulnerability aren't really front in center when it comes to what it means to be feminine. Sure, it's one expression of femininity, but femininity comes in many forms and it's on you to find what forms of femininity feels authentic to you, regardless of gender, and what it means for masculinity and femininity to be balanced.  If I were to put a number on things, I would say that I'm like 60% masculine and 40% feminine from a western standpoint. My boyfriend is the opposite and I guess that's why we balance each other out well in our relationship.

Masculinity =/= men and femininity =/= women. Sure they may be correlated but again, due to the ways that what we consider to be masculine and feminine differing in the collective and the way that people have what they consider their own personal equilibrium on an individual level, integration can be complex. I mean, even if you're nonbinary, you still have a sense of balance in masculine and feminine energy which influences your gender expression.

So while I don't believe in gender roles because of the way that it constricts us from our natural self-expression, I also don't think that throwing out masculinity and femininity as concepts is helpful either. I think if we take out the collective notion of these energies and the individual meanings we ascribe to them to relate to these energies, at it's core, categorizing masculinity and femininty is a way that we articulate duality. Whether you think the sun is masculine and the moon is feminine, or if you think the sun is feminine and the moon is masculine, both are pointing to a dualistic relationship. And if you find yourself having trouble integrating the opposite duality, that can cause issues with coming from a whole, self assured, and self aware way in the way that you create shadows in the process. Which goes back to you point on why it's hard for men and women to integrate various concepts and stages

[Basman]

On 4/10/2025 at 10:08 PM, blackchair said:

I just honestly go to 2 subforums here, spirituality where everyone is above Leo, they figure it out what reality and God is, they have 12k posts, and all that jazz, and the same users complain and bitch about women in sexuality subforum. And plus there is only 2 women on the whole forum. Good vibes. But everyone is yellow and turquoise, and in reality, 50 users total on the whole forum who are bunch of 20 something years olds (most of it) chasing highs....

Most users here are cut from the same cloth as Rick & Morty watching stoners.

[integration journey]

I asked ChatGPT how to embody stage green without sacrificing your masculinity and this was the answer: 

 

Stage Green is about community, compassion, connection, egalitarianism, and emotional intelligence. The challenge for many men is to embody this openness and empathy without sacrificing direction, strength, or grounded masculine energy.

 

Here’s how you can walk that line:

 

1. Lead with Compassion, Not Submission

 

    •    Stage Green Trap: Collapsing boundaries, avoiding conflict, or trying to please everyone.

    •    Masculine Integration: Lead with an open heart, but don’t abandon your spine. You can be kind and assertive. Compassion doesn’t mean passivity.

 

Example mantra: “My heart is open, but my sword is still sharp.”

 

2. Embrace Vulnerability as Strength

 

    •    Green says: Share your emotions. Be real.

    •    Masculine says: Do it with courage and ownership. Vulnerability isn’t weakness—it’s raw presence.

 

Embody it: Cry when it’s real. Speak when it’s hard. Take responsibility for your emotional world without blaming or shrinking.

 

3. Stay Purpose-Driven

 

    •    Don’t lose your vision in the collective swirl. Stage Green loves harmony, but the healthy masculine craves direction.

    •    Stay anchored in your personal mission while honoring the collective.

 

Ask yourself often: “What am I here to create? How can my presence serve the whole?”

 

4. Don’t Shame Your Assertiveness

 

    •    Many in Green spaces (especially in activist or healing circles) start to demonize masculine traits like assertiveness, discipline, and competition.

    •    Don’t internalize that shame. Your assertiveness is sacred when rooted in love.

 

5. Master Emotional Depth Without Losing Ground

 

    •    Feel deeply, but don’t get swept away.

    •    The integrated masculine feels emotion like an ocean, but remains the container. Be the still point in the storm—not emotionally numb, but emotionally present and spacious.

 

6. Cultivate the Warrior Monk Archetype

 

    •    Fierce presence + deep compassion.

    •    Discipline + flow.

    •    Stillness + emotion.

 

Look to figures like:

    •    Thich Nhat Hanh (gentle yet strong)

    •    MLK (loving yet immovable)

    •    Samurai philosophy (compassionate warrior)

 

7. Stay Grounded in the Body

 

    •    Don’t live only in emotional or intellectual abstraction (a Green tendency).

    •    Train. Breathe. Meditate. Make presence your anchor.

 

 

[Consept]

I do believe I'm majority stage yellow, however if someone said I wasnt I dont think it would bother me and its not something I would really say outside this forum, I'm only saying it now to see what conversation gets stoked up. I agree with @Carl-Richard op in that it is a lot about living, not just reading or knowing all the talking points. Where I saw a lot of progress personally was where addressed past traumas, childhood stuff etc but then also made conscious efforts to connect with people wherever they were at. I also sought truth in everything, I regularly take wisdom from religious texts or learn directly from people that speak about them. I would never convert or anything but I believe there is so much wisdom in these texts and what you realise talking to a muslim or a christian is that theyre basically saying the same things, its just the mythos is different. I love living where i live in England because you can speak to such a wide variety of people, I think this is a major advantage in terms of developing, if a grew up in a place where everyone believed the same thing and were homogeneous, I dont think theres anyway I'd be at the same level of development. 

So i think theres a big element of luck involved in where you are developmentally, it could also be considered lucky to have some trauma in your life whereby you look for answers or you look for deeper meanings in things, whilst trying to heal yourself. Theres so many things i think that contribute to your development that are actually outside of your control. 

Also what I found is im not that interested in learning much more about non-duality for example, I just want to experience and live life whilst also contributing to society where i can. 

[Norbert Somogyi]

On 2025. 04. 14. at 2:11 PM, AION said:

I don’t think everybody’s brain is capable of SD yellow. Especially after one has reached a certain age it becomes more difficult to rearrange the brain to an integral structure. It requires a lot of connections. Even on this forum it is very rare to see. There are obviously a lot of people with influencers of SD yellow while being SD green as base. Having SD yellow as a base is a different game. 

This comment of yours and the responses prompted me to do some research around brain power, neuroplasticity and got to BDNF (Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor). Turns out you can drastically improve neuroplasticity even in later ages, and prevent or even partially reverse most forms of cognitive decline. Checking these seem to create a foundation for the mind to become resilient against setbacks, as well as be open to new challenges and experiences. The earlier, the better

• Supplements & compounds (VitD and cofactors like Magnesium, Omega 3, Zinc, Quercetin, Resveratrol etc.), lifestyle changes (sleep, exercise, socialization), interventions (light therapies, acupuncture, psychotherapies), psychedelics, diet (Mediterranean, Keto, or just naturally what your body feels best on). New experiences, traveling, hobbies - self-actualization in a sense.
• Different folks are at a different reaching distance from these due to environmental, cultural, emotional circumstances, genetics, ego-development etc. However I believe most people are the closest to supplements that can eventually help open their world to the rest of the methods naturally or artifically.
• In my case they opened me up to live through some Orange qualities - increased desire for autonomy, skepticism, boundary-setting, achieving, intellectual curiosity, fulfilling my needs without others' approval etc. - that I have been neglecting or even subconsciously shaming. My brain is in top-performance it has been since my teens, and life just keeps getting better.

Naturally not everyone will reach Yellow in their lifetimes, however not everyone needs to. People can live a fulfilling life without it. They can fulfill their needs while also building connections and trying to decrease the hurt they inflict on others. A healthy, achieving orange that integrated the tamed the beast of red, embraced the morality of blue and is open to the empathy of green - maybe even touching into Yellow thanks to self-actualization this process can propell them to. Let's not forget Purple where our intimate connection to others and the world seems to be derived from. Our tribalistic, animistic nature that appreciates the sacredness of everything around us - and where our evolutionary development seems to be at. Even this is idealistic, but oh well. Yellow will rise to inflict changes in the workings of the world that create a more fertile soil for change as well as cooperation.

Granted most folks will not even realize the existence of Spiral Dynamics or even developmental psychology. But hey, life and the internet is always full of surprises. 

 

[BlueOak]

33 minutes ago, Consept said:

I do believe I'm majority stage yellow, however if someone said I wasnt I dont think it would bother me and its not something I would really say outside this forum, I'm only saying it now to see what conversation gets stoked up. 

If it helps, I would say yes, in our conversations, whatever part of me I am putting forward, you seem able to interact with. Whether I go on an orange or green political rant, or I do a blue dip into religion, I assume it would be the same with red/beige survival fears. We can take those concepts all the way up the spectrum, as you describe in your post.

33 minutes ago, Consept said:

. I agree with @Carl-Richard op in that it is a lot about living, not just reading or knowing all the talking points. Where I saw a lot of progress personally was where addressed past traumas, childhood stuff etc but then also made conscious efforts to connect with people wherever they were at.

Because that's meeting yourself where you are quite literally in that moment. I know you want to avoid non-dual, so you can take this to duality too, it's that part of yourself you are in, and you can develop all parts of you. From fighting in a boxing ring, to sitting on a mountain top with a yogi. (And every childhood experience you ever had)

33 minutes ago, Consept said:

I would never convert or anything but I believe there is so much wisdom in these texts and what you realise talking to a muslim or a christian is that theyre basically saying the same things, its just the mythos is different. I love living where i live in England because you can speak to such a wide variety of people, I think this is a major advantage in terms of developing, if a grew up in a place where everyone believed the same thing and were homogeneous, I dont think theres anyway I'd be at the same level of development. 

So i think theres a big element of luck involved in where you are developmentally, it could also be considered lucky to have some trauma in your life whereby you look for answers or you look for deeper meanings in things, whilst trying to heal yourself. Theres so many things i think that contribute to your development that are actually outside of your control. 

Yes. While I believe there is no such thing as luck, only patterns. Who you are born to and where you are born sets up a lot of your life and runs through it.

Sorry for the non dual: But healing the self is healing everything. Every experience you have and everyone you interact with. So if you were to get angry here there would be a certain outcome for me or the thread as a whole. if you were to offer me something in return, I or others might benefit , and the thread itself would take on a certain tone or course.

When I see someone saying, i'm not blue, i'm not orange, i'm not green. The desire to be something else other than the moment they are in. I just think we'll you are not reaching yellow on this particular moment either then. I am all of those things folded into my replies (When I am not stuck or in fear, or want to be.), and I try to reach for turquoise sometimes and glimpse it. Other times I ignore it and just model and over analyse everything because of a crippling desire for certainty and clarity.

 

Edited April 15 by BlueOak

[Consept]

21 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Because that's meeting yourself where you are quite literally in that moment. I know you want to avoid non-dual, so you can take this to duality too, it's that part of yourself you are in, and you can develop all parts of you. From fighting in a boxing ring, to sitting on a mountain top with a yogi. (And every childhood experience you ever had)

I dont necessarily want to avoid non-duality, I had a period where i was deep into it and listened to a lot of content and read a lot of books about it. Then i had a period where i was going through the motions of being interested in it and slightly worried that me losing interest in it means ive somehow lost the understanding and embodiment of it. Now Ive accepted all these phases and i feel like ive taken it on as my fundamental understanding of the world, but it doesnt mean i have to always be interested in it. Its kinda like if you accept the earth is a globe, youve seen it, youve researched it etc after a while you would lose interest in constantly learning about it as it becomes a fundamental truth for you. 

But yes i agree its important to develop all parts of you, which i do try and do. 

21 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Yes. While I believe there is no such thing as luck, only patterns. Who you are born to and where you are born sets up a lot of your life and runs through it.

yeah patterns i guess im using luck as an interchangeable word there, but yes i believe it plays a massive factor in peoples development. Say with me if I had been born to a really religious family, I could still be in that paradigm now, or have taken longer to be able to think freely. I think theres a temptation to say 'oh im just so great and developed' but life circumstances which seem almost random are actually key to progress. Another thing for me was having OCD, this essentially forced me to investigate and see my thoughts for what they were, if i didnt have OCD that never wouldve happened. As horrible an experience as it was and it couldve even killed me, if i didnt go through it i would be completely different now. 

21 hours ago, BlueOak said:

When I see someone saying, i'm not blue, i'm not orange, i'm not green. The desire to be something else other than the moment they are in. I just think we'll you are not reaching yellow on this particular moment either then. I am all of those things folded into my replies (When I am not stuck or in fear, or want to be.), and I try to reach for turquoise sometimes and glimpse it. Other times I ignore it and just model and over analyse everything because of a crippling desire for certainty and clarity.

I agree i think thats real stuff, wherever you are now is where you are and its temporary. If you build an identity around being yellow or green or whatever, you will have this standard youre trying to live up to and feel like youve failed if you dont reach it at any given time. Much better to be whoever you are in this moment. Sometimes you might actually need to be red or green or orange, i think thats when the spiral wizard description of yellow comes into play, as someone at yellow can see the benefits and the limitations of each stage and use them accordingly