What are the odds that you, an average dude, is Tier 2? Not very high.

[Alexop]

@Carl-Richard I think the hardest part is integrating Yellow on day to day life. Those 1-2% are the ones who live through Yellow not just logically understand it. If you follow us for 6 months, you will logically get it it, it is not that hard. But to live from Yellow, that is shit hard. in the same way anyone can understand that by swearing to a guy that cut your way is pointless, but you do it anyway when it happens.

Never get tricked by words, I look at actions. Any fool can come with theories.

Edited Thursday at 10:24 PM by Alexop

[Yimpa]

2 minutes ago, Alexop said:

Never get tricked by words, I look at actions. Any fool can come with theories.

You've got a nice smile

[Alexop]

11 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

You've got a nice smile

Don't let my smile trick you. I am a badass MF. I eat armchair forum sages for breakfast. I don't ask for your POVs, I ask your GF how happy she is with you.

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, Ulax said:

So you believe that our external choices will be reflective on the stage we’re at.  And that we can help tell what stage we are at by what choices we are making at this stage of our life?

The inside and outside are two sides of the same coin

[Yimpa]

44 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The inside and outside are two sides of the same coin

Nothing is meaningless; All is Love

[TheEnigma]

13 hours ago, Majed said:

@Leo Gura Yeah people don't see the value in truth and philosophy, all they care about is survival and having fun, gossiping, having relationships, following celebrities... what an existence lmao 

There's nothing wrong with that!

[Yimpa]

6 minutes ago, TheEnigma said:

There's nothing wrong with that!

PIG 

[aurum]

5 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

That's Beck's assumption (I presume, referencing an article that excerpted a keynote speech by Whole Foods Market CEO John Mackey who gave an overview of SD while applying it the food industry and global agricultural system). But it makes sense that it would increase your power on average, as with IQ or anything else powerful. But maybe it's a more complicated picture.

That article I think points to what I was saying.

If you look at the percentage of societal power held by each stage, an obvious bell curve emerges, with Blue-Orange at the peak. Purple and Red have little power since a lot of society has evolved past that point. And the higher stages (Green+) have almost no power at all, especially Tier 2.

I think the reality of Tier 2 stages is that they are just too ahead of the developmental curve. Any attempt to bring Tier 2 into systems with Blue-Orange center of gravity will likely result in either the corruption or rejection of Tier 2.

Maybe if you were a serious spiral wizard you could make some gains and improve things, but I'd say the system mostly dominates you. Your Tier 2 turns into Tier 1.

5 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Well, we're really just talking about getting friends and getting your ideas rolled out in some tangible format. It doesn't necessarily require to become a billionaire or anything. You can be heavily "strategic" about it, as the Yellow stage suggests.

Okay, but I'd say that's hardly enough on its own to qualify as Tier 2. Tier 1 stages can be strategic and get tangible results. The lower stages are all about tangible, survival results because that's all they know.

Look at the rollout of Project 2025. Highly strategic, real world tangible results impacting major systems. Tier 2? I don't think so.

Yellow is mostly reacting to the over-optimism / utopian thinking that Green can fall into. Which is valid, but getting results is not unique to Yellow.

Edited Friday at 03:19 AM by aurum

[Carl-Richard]

44 minutes ago, aurum said:

That article I think points to what I was saying.

If you look at the percentage of societal power held by each stage, an obvious bell curve emerges, with Blue-Orange at the peak. Purple and Red have little power since a lot of society has evolved past that point. And the higher stages (Green+) have almost no power at all, especially Tier 2.

You have to look at the ratio of power to population.

 

44 minutes ago, aurum said:

I think the reality of Tier 2 stages is that they are just too ahead of the developmental curve. Any attempt to bring Tier 2 into systems with Blue-Orange center of gravity will likely result in either the corruption or rejection of Tier 2.

Maybe if you were a serious spiral wizard you could make some gains and improve things, but I'd say the system mostly dominates you. Your Tier 2 turns into Tier 1.

Your system can be rather closed and private. It doesn't have to be global (or even local). Your private friends aren't global.

 

44 minutes ago, aurum said:

Okay, but I'd say that's hardly enough on its own to qualify as Tier 2. Tier 1 stages can be strategic and get tangible results. The lower stages are all about tangible, survival results because that's all they know.

Look at the rollout of Project 2025. Highly strategic, real world tangible results impacting major systems. Tier 2? I don't think so.

Yellow is mostly reacting to the over-optimism / utopian thinking that Green can fall into. Which is valid, but getting results is not unique to Yellow.

I think the best way to "identify" whether somebody is in Tier 2 is by how much time they have spent in Green. Then how Yellow they appear on the outside comes second.

Edited Friday at 04:00 AM by Carl-Richard

[Elliott]

I don't think you should focus on who is directly influencing society today. Personally, I think Xi is a sage, but noticeable influence may not occur until even after some people's death.

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

You have to look at the ratio of power to population.

That's a fair point I didn't consider.

It may be the case that on a percentage basis people of a higher development hold disproportionate amount of power. That would be interesting to research.

How accurate do you think their numbers are?

[LordFall]

@Carl-Richard I think you're right but I think the way you phrased your argument is a bit insane. Why would it be probabilistic? You either embody a stage and are able to think from its perspective or not. Probably most actualized members have some stage yellow in them or this forum wouldn't appeal to them. Stage green people usually are quite closed minded and refuse to see the world through other perspectives.

I personally see it more as progress bars for each stage rather than you've ascended to the next stage forever. For example integrating fully stage blue and orange is incredibly difficult and I would argue if you're not a multimillionaire you haven't fully grasped those stages and not stage orange. Stage blue was hard for me and I've looped back to it in terms of duty to my people and carrying my cross good ol jordan peterson style. 

@aurum I don't think it's possible to live in isolation of effect meaning if you are truly conscious and have reached stage green and above then you will work on the worlds problems as they are our collective consciousness's problems. The idea of a stage turquoise dude meditating in a cave is an incorrect absorption of the lower stages and basically narcissism ala osho. 

[BlueOak]

Everyone has these tiers or their capabilities within them. If I talk to someone long enough I can have them model their own life, in their own words, because everyone has an inner sage personality. If I listen to anyone I can learn something about myself because I am reflecting myself upon them.

What you identify as that person, is the part of yourself currently being reflected. That person will be multifaceted (if you are). and if you've developed all these parts of yourself out consciously so they all interconnect and work in tandem, do you see its you that's limited or not in communication or action?
 

Edited Friday at 06:43 AM by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

3 hours ago, aurum said:

Yellow is mostly reacting to the over-optimism / utopian thinking that Green can fall into. Which is valid, but getting results is not unique to Yellow.

Being what we are calling tier 2 here is being reflected by others as proactive. Which I understand from a forum founded on personal development, but its a non neutral bias.  Elevation of consciousness doesn't make someone more proactive by default.

Edited Friday at 06:56 AM by BlueOak

[Norbert Somogyi]

What I think needs to be mentioned here is that Spiral Dynamics is but a model, a western one at that. Is it useful? Hell yeah! Does it apply equally to the development of all human beings/societies on this planet? I don't think so. To me it appears to mirror Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, which I think works in tandem with the integration and transition between the stages up to Yellow (perhaps Turqoise). The previous discussion about community, networking, career being a necessity to develop into Tier 2 reflects that as well. Strictly adhering to the models, it is a necessity and in most cases I think it actually is. 

However a yogi meditating in a cave for decades may tap into Coral (acknowledged by Beck, hinted at by Wilber) or beyond, without going through these stages since the environment drastically differs from one SD usually considers. Would it be the same as someone who went through these stages and integrated them? I don't think so, but the manifestation may be similar - at least on an individual level. For a long time I considered that kind of action a selfish escape, but nowadays I've been thinking if there is a potential effect of their manifestation of consciousness on the collective as a whole.

I also think that progression when you consider this model is messy, not linear at all. It got incredibly messy since the globalization and the internet. It's more like those vertical soundwave visualizers you see on music players like WinAmp, seemingly randomly manifesting (even though there is a delicate balance within the chaos), but there's a hint of progression (like increasing the potenciometer of Preamp gradually over the years). 

A quote from Clare Graves (The father of SD) - "The psychology of the mature human being is an unfolding, emergent, oscillating, spiraling process marked by progressive subordination of older, lower-order behavior systems to newer, higher-order systems"

"The map is not the territory" - Leo, 2020?

[BlueOak]

@Norbert Somogyi

Having more or less done that to disolve ego away completely (it returned, don't worry), and become infinite love for a few minutes, what we can call coral or beyond. I can say it does jump your awareness because all the old patterns that were no longer active in your environment/you or sustained by it break away. Its like washing yourself clean, which people do in various forms all throughout society, when they relax and let go.

Then slowly the patterns that are still relevant, feared, or unresolved etc, return and your ego reforms to defend itself from the perceived threat or 'other'. So if I had stayed in isolation for long enough, I could have been in a state of nirvana, but I would have only been interacting with that aspect of myself, and that aspect of myself is a fraction of my ability to perceive infinity. Its not whole, especially if you are not whole (Hint non of us are if we are in any kind of resistance)

Gratitude: This did let me reform my understanding of the perception of infinity again, which is what 'we the self are' as I hadn't had the words to describe it in this way.

*I also don't like the term whole anymore, I need to reform my understanding of what I mean. Because we are always 'whole', there are just parts of ourselves perceiving infinity in different ways to generate emotions or different reflections in our environment or life, and the contrast between them is what causes problems.

Edited Friday at 10:14 AM by BlueOak

[Norbert Somogyi]

@BlueOak

Thank you for sharing your experience! 

I can attest to the ego-reframing experience (spiritual bypassing as a teenager, lots of meditation - had a so-called satori experience), which led me through a journey of spiritual ego initially and then rediscovering myself as a human and what it means to me. Even though my ego reformed, there is at least one almost impercivable crack in the whole structure - which is shined upon whenever I come near infinity. Instead of total denial, I panic while fear washes over my whole being. Guess it is still better this way, because you could think of this experience that had a lasting impact, forming a crack where divine light shines through. Whatever seed is put in there, the constant source of light helps it grow - a spiritual photosynthesis so to speak.

I also like your description of whole and different parts of ourselves experiencing infinity differently, reminds me of holism and IFS.

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, aurum said:

That's a fair point I didn't consider.

It may be the case that on a percentage basis people of a higher development hold disproportionate amount of power. That would be interesting to research.

How accurate do you think their numbers are?

Probably not very accurate, but I'm always trying my best to talk about the model on its own terms (or its creators terms). If you bring too much of your own interpretation into it, you are not talking about the model anymore but yourself.

7 hours ago, LordFall said:

@Carl-Richard I think you're right but I think the way you phrased your argument is a bit insane. Why would it be probabilistic? You either embody a stage and are able to think from its perspective or not. Probably most actualized members have some stage yellow in them or this forum wouldn't appeal to them. Stage green people usually are quite closed minded and refuse to see the world through other perspectives.

I personally see it more as progress bars for each stage rather than you've ascended to the next stage forever. For example integrating fully stage blue and orange is incredibly difficult and I would argue if you're not a multimillionaire you haven't fully grasped those stages and not stage orange. Stage blue was hard for me and I've looped back to it in terms of duty to my people and carrying my cross good ol jordan peterson style. 

People are attracted to interesting-sounding and wise-sounding ideas, but that does not mean they are able to grasp them to the full extent. I'm willing to bet that if you interviewed random people on the street giving them a short briefing on SD and ask about their thoughts about it, the vast majority would say "wow, that's so cool, that makes so much sense!".

Then of course, based on that surface level understanding, you would have many who would tweak the theory based on their own biases (like you are doing right now) by for example "why is Green over Orange?" or "I think conservatism is Yellow" or "I think I'm a bit of everything". The bottom line is, it's always possible to pull the model down to your level, and people who come across this forum which has no entry requirements but a few clicks on a screen are not exempt from that.

I already mentioned what I think are the two best ways to identify whether you are at a certain stage, but another one would be to notice how you deal with everyday problems or problems in your life. For example, do you use the same solution for most problems (e.g. "I simply write down everything I find valuable"), or do you intentionally tailor the solutions to the particular problem (e.g. "I only write down what I need to do for today")? Do you hold two things as mutually exclusive (e.g. "I want to persevere on pursuing my goals but be kind with myself") when they could actually be compatible?

The way your mind deals with concrete issues is a much stronger test of your actual capacities than regurgitating a set of talking points purely in the abstract. It shows what your mind opts for when it's connected to your inner drives and impulses and when it's presented with something you don't have a pre-set answer for.

Edited Friday at 02:01 PM by Carl-Richard

[The Renaissance Man]

I haven't read the replies to your post but I have read your post. I think you're right, but you're also underestimating the forum. I believe the truth is in the middle in this case.

You have probably experienced how quickly learning about certain concepts, especially about beliefs and epistemology, can make you vertically develop. It's insane. That is true development. You can see it when dealing with other people. They just don't see their blindness.

That can happen in 6 months. That has happened to a lot of people here in 6 months. There's no denying that. New scenarios, worldviews that were not mentioned in any book or episode, yet the ability to maintain a detachment and catch the self-deception earlier than 99% of people.

This doesn't mean zero self-deception, but it means far better than normal. In months.

So the idea that a stage must take decades is false to me. It may be true if you actually stumble your way through development, not being aware it even exists. Only growing through experience and the various discrepancies that hopefully you start to notice. Then it takes decades. But if the light is shown straight to the problematic point, you can really develop certain areas at warp speed.

And that's not even an opinion. I think it's quite common for people in this forum to have had this warp-speed perspective development in months or a couple years. Obviously there will always be the loud minority of people who are 4 stages earlier and make crazy claims.

[Nilsi]

21 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Yep. Reducing difference to mere difference.

Of course there are tradeoffs. If you want your essentialist metaphysics - Plato, Kant, Freud, Lacan, Jung, all that good stuff - go ahead. Neither side is more “true.” Which doesn’t mean there’s no truth, btw.

Just don’t come at me with your “both/and” bullshit. Sooner or later, reality will force your hand. When shit hits the fan, you’ll know exactly which God you’re praying to. That’s the thing about metaphysics - you don’t get to not choose.

Edited Friday at 07:42 PM by Nilsi