Psychotherapy as an antidote for self deception?

[Nivsch]

9 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

• Over arching automatic critisizm and judgment of everyone
• Black & white thinking
• Some immature and completely false thoughts
• Being "parental" - taking care of everybody unconsciously 
• Self sacrifice and people pleasing to the point of almost total self cancelation
• Having intrusive worrying thoughts about everything 

Great

[Breakingthewall]

The usefulness of a therapist is that by trying to help them understand your reality, you understand it more clearly. What the therapist thinks is irrelevant; it's simply their opinion. But by talking about your emotional reality, clarity opens up.

[Anton Rogachevski]

9 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The usefulness of a therapist is that by trying to help them understand your reality, you understand it more clearly. What the therapist thinks is irrelevant; it's simply their opinion. But by talking about your emotional reality, clarity opens up.

I wouldn't say it's completely irrelevant, there has to be at least some trust in their experience and judgment ability. He doesn't care about your metaphysics, or whether you think that you are god or not, he only cares that you are happy and have no problems functioning normally.

[Breakingthewall]

58 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

I wouldn't say it's completely irrelevant, there has to be at least some trust in their experience and judgment ability. He doesn't care about your metaphysics, or whether you think that you are god or not, he only cares that you are happy and have no problems functioning normally.

I'm not talking about God and those stories, but about understanding your emotional reality. The psychologist may tell you that you have an insecure attachment because your parents etc, and you may think: Of course, that's it! But the reality is that this is a conceptual story. You have to see your emotional reality, feel it. It's like a vibration that originates based on innate patterns and develops through your experiences. It's not conceptual, it's real, it's beyond language. The whole therapy thing is for you to open the door to real understanding, beyond the concept.

[Lyubov]

Therapy helps a ton but there’s a stage you  reach when you’re ready to leave talk therapy and resolve your issues from truth within. 

There is almost a sort of conundrum most people run into in therapy. They never resolve issues they have. They go to therapy because they are in emotional pain. Most therapists and people don’t understand emotions are self generated, they have very nuanced stories for emotions and the mind. You create them through your beliefs. You aren’t conscious to how but you do it. They are created by beliefs. Most therapists sort of discuss the emotions and stories and start to chip away at the beliefs by doing this but the issue is you haven’t glimpsed at what is true and integrated that into your belief system.
 

So they are sort of running on faulty methods that don’t resolve the core issues. You are only going to therapy because you believe you have a problem, and all mental problems always culminate in a belief system that denies or clouds one’s own inner greatness. Usually some belief at the core that does like “I’m bad, I’m not good enough, I’m not lovable, I’m not capable, my life is lacking.” Something like this. If you can work with a therapist that is conscious that emotions are self generated by belief and entirely your responsibility and they are aware of the inherent spiritual value within, call it being god if you want, then they can lead you back to wholeness and give you skills to constantly reapply this way to your life whenever challenges arise.

If you are just talking about feelings and your therapist is not aware of the spirit within being closed by false beliefs, then you will stay stuck. Some can be aware of this but not have a well developed method to lead you back to oneness.

https://youtube.com/@wuweiwisdom?si=F9_J2Xcl8hJ8a5Ib
 

Check out this channel. This guy is a therapist and Taoist monk and the best therapist I’ve ever spoken to and probably one of the best on the entire planet. Such a person would never be recognized by modern academia and mental health institutions because he’s just too advanced for them. His method isn’t about sitting in therapy for months or years at a time but giving you a few sessions which resolve all your inner issues so you no longer need a therapist and can do self inquiry on your own. He basically teaches you how to do self inquiry without all the woo woo and poor developed teachings so you can awaken even if you aren’t intentionally on a spiritual path. 

Edited Sunday at 04:44 PM by Lyubov

[Breakingthewall]

18 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

you are just talking about feelings and your therapist is not aware of the spirit within being closed by false beliefs, then you will stay stuck. Some can be aware of this but not have a well developed method to lead you back to oneness

In my opinion, that's looking for a shortcut. In therapy, you won't realize your inner greatness or the unity of reality, but rather how the emotional dynamics of your family, which you've later transferred to your relationships with others and with yourself, are blocking you from being free to love yourself fully and others and be fearless. No 5MEO trip or meditation retreat, no matter how mystical, will free you if you don't understand the mechanisms of your emotional prison. Only you can understand that. It's not easy or natural. It's natural to persist in inherited emotional patterns. Truly changing them is within the reach of only a few; it's something very profound, you have to change your deep structure. Mostly think that they did, but they keep the same structures with a different manifestation

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Lyubov

Thank you for your reply, I will surely check him out.

My therapists is teaching me to challenge all the beliefs that cause me pain.

I agree with Braking, there are no shortcuts I think. It's only slowly chipping at the massive web of wrong beliefs and stupid immature patterns.

Edited Sunday at 05:18 PM by Anton Rogachevski

[Lyubov]

35 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

In my opinion, that's looking for a shortcut. In therapy, you won't realize your inner greatness or the unity of reality, but rather how the emotional dynamics of your family, which you've later transferred to your relationships with others and with yourself, are blocking you from being free to love yourself fully and others and be fearless. No 5MEO trip or meditation retreat, no matter how mystical, will free you if you don't understand the mechanisms of your emotional prison. Only you can understand that. It's not easy or natural. It's natural to persist in inherited emotional patterns. Truly changing them is within the reach of only a few; it's something very profound, you have to change your deep structure. Mostly think that they did, but they keep the same structures with a different manifestation

Wouldn't you like to find a shortcut that actually works? You don't believe those exist? It can appear that way if you are running on faulty knowledge or methods. It's like trying to build your house on the wrong foundation for so long that you start to believe X or Y isn't possible but it's not that there isn't another way which exists which solves your issues for good, and is actually as easy as I am saying it is, it's that you're still looking through the same belief system that doesn't work in some way. Just be open to the idea there is a shortcut and it is actually this easy and has been all long. My standard of a therapist is someone who can lead someone to their inner greatness and the unity of reality because that is exactly what a highly developed spiritually aware therapist does. There's just so few of them and most people teaching spirituality have very half baked methods that don't actually work for most people, or bizarre esoteric woo woo teachings which only work for a select few that are seeking. I agree that trips and meditation retreats don't usually resolve inner issues because these methods and actions aren't designed to fully understand and resolve inner issues. I don't believe it's natural to persist in painful emotions. It is a choice that if you are to become aware of why you are choosing to do it, you can choose otherwise and let go and experience the love that is here. Most people just have a number of beliefs in their way from seeing this and experiencing the love that is always here, always now. It is not possible to experience the love if you have created a belief for yourself that says "I am unlovable because ______." I don't believe changing them is in within reach for only a few and I don't think the structure is difficult to change. Those are beliefs as well created to protect the structure, usually out of frustration from not knowing how. This is why so few therapists aren't actually able to lead their clients to resolution or awakening. They don't understand. 

Edited Sunday at 05:38 PM by Lyubov

[Lyubov]

20 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Lyubov

Thank you for your reply, I will surely check him out.

My therapists is teaching me to challenge all the beliefs that cause me pain.

I agree with Braking, there are no shortcuts I think. It's only slowly chipping at the massive web of wrong beliefs and stupid immature patterns.

I think you can challenge them, but I think it's more important in understanding why you chose them in the first place. You aren't a victim to your beliefs. You are choosing your beliefs, maybe out of a lack of perspective, but you are still choosing them. Looking through them all the time. Just really understand what they are, what they say, what you believe. Question them lovingly. Nothing has to be forced. Why do you believe about yourself and why do you believe it? What are the beliefs that are causing you pain and why do you believe they are true? If you came to me and told me you lack value or aren't good enough. I would ask you why you believe you aren't good enough. Genuinely explain to me how you can be not good enough? What makes that even true??? I do not believe it's possible to be not good enough because I have yet to find a shred of evidence that actually makes that true.

Edited Sunday at 05:37 PM by Lyubov

[Breakingthewall]

@Lyubov  

Most therapists are just as blocked as their patients, but they believe they aren't, like almost everyone else. People act robotically, without understanding themselves, but their programming includes believing they've made a lot of progress.

If you're looking for a truly insightful therapist, open-minded and perceptive, flexible, and who deeply understands emotions and mechanics of the mind, it will be difficult to find. What is possible I guess is to find a therapist with a certain level of emotional intelligence who, with their feedback, can help you understand your dynamics. I've tried very few times, and when I have, it seemed to me an expensive scam. But I'm sure if you look, there will be people capable of doing the job.

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Lyubov

Some of these beliefs are part of a trauma structure, a scar. It's not always as easy as just changing the narrative. 

My low self esteem, I am aware of, I'm always trying to re write it, but something deep down doesn't believe the update and it just won't accept the new narrative.

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Breakingthewall

I also used to think it's a scam. It took me half a year to let go of all these ego  defences to see that I'm simply resisting change. The ego apparently has a tough outer shell.

[Lyubov]

13 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Lyubov

Some of these beliefs are part of a trauma structure, a scar. It's not always as easy as just changing the narrative. 

My low self esteem, I am aware of, I'm always trying to re write it, but something deep down doesn't believe the update and it just won't accept the new narrative.

So this is where it's really important to refine your approach and understand yourself, understand your beliefs and have the right relationship with  yourself so you can really resolve what's happening. 

Own it. It's not something deep down. It's there to be understood if you will genuinely listen. Let that be and love that but own it, whenever you feel confused or like what's going on is ungraspable or difficult to change it is just a way you are sort of avoiding the resolution because there is a sort of preference you have for not changing. You see the inner child or ego (whatever you want to call it) prefers the familiar or to try to be in control even if it's confusing, because it believes it is safe but we know we aren't actually safe by holding onto these limiting beliefs, they actually only hold us back from sailing towards what is right.  I would ask: why don't you believe the update? You don't have to accept the new narrative? You don't have to force this new narrative or anything, it's just about gentle questioning and genuinely listening to really understand. Your inner child / ego will open up and talk to you if you are really willing to listen and not force these new beliefs on it, just listen, listen to yourself why you think you aren't good enough and question why that is true.

This is why the inner child model is so powerful for resolving inner issues like this. Because you can talk to yourself like a loving parent and actually uncover all of what is happening. The subconscious is not some mystery with everything hidden away, only accessible to those with some hidden esoteric knowledge. It is actually so simple to access that it's why many people usually have a bit of a challenge understanding this one simple lesson at first. It's so simple that that's the reason so many people trip up, but I'm saying it's not as hard as you think and you absolutely can shift your perspective and resolve what's happening. 

It seems all like this mystery, a secret, I've been exactly there, but what's so important is you have to own it and realize all these gates in the way are a choice and easily open when you have the right approach. Own them and ask yourself "Why do I believe I am not good enough?" Genuinely answer that question without going on a tangent about how it's hard to change, and just keep asking why. Trust that you are good and valuable as you are. This self inquiry will lead to total understanding of this pattern you have created and as you gently listen and answer the questions you come up with compassion, the issues will melt away and resolve.

Watch some of the videos of the guy I sent you. he has mapped out the entire suffering structure that the inner child / mind / ego makes and reduced it perfectly into something which will allow you to answer the questions you have that will come up so you can reengineer your belief system and let go of all the beliefs you are holding onto.

Edited Monday at 05:05 PM by Lyubov

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Lyubov

Thank you dear fellow traveler 

[Nivsch]

On 7.4.2025 at 6:06 AM, Anton Rogachevski said:

My low self esteem, I am aware of, I'm always trying to re write it

If you tried to rewrite a friend of yours, how do you think he would react?

The same goes for your brain and mind.

Invest in a genuine relationship with it.

Edited Tuesday at 11:00 AM by Nivsch

[Breakingthewall]

On 7/4/2025 at 5:09 AM, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Breakingthewall

I also used to think it's a scam. It took me half a year to let go of all these ego  defences to see that I'm simply resisting change. The ego apparently has a tough outer shell.

Psychotherapy is not a scam, It's an aid to understanding that leads to openness, to being fully yourself, but you have to make that openness yourself. The psychologist won't do it for you; they're just a tool you use, and pay for, to help you with something you do. It's normal for the psychologist not to truly understand you, but that's positive because by trying to get them to understand you, you understand yourself.

It's very difficult to truly understand someone; you have to be very deep, and psychologists are full of learned labels, of what's right and wrong, functional and dysfunctional. It's normal; that's how most people in the world are. Psychologists are a little more open-minded, but only a little. Then it's not necessary that the psychologist fully understands you, what's necessary is self understanding, and they could be very useful, also friends when you get used to talk without barriers 

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Breakingthewall

Agree. It's almost impossible to truly understand someone else, cause we don't have access to their experience.

[theleelajoker]

I thought about quitting this forum, but the discussion in this thread has been a reminder that there are some nuggets for me to be found.

My 50 cents from my experience:

• It's more than just believe. It can be very deep in the nervous system and intellectual work is not enough. There really seems to be sth like an energetic structure. Karma, trauma, family history...
• "psychologists are full of learned labels, of what's right and wrong, functional and dysfunctional" very true for most psychologist I know! On the plus side, because they are in touch with so many different people and emotions they are very likely to pick up some skill and openness just by working with and talking to people.
• "If you tried to rewrite a friend of yours, how do you think he would react?" Like that one very much. A mistake I often did and sometimes still do. I do measure X to change this to Y. Typical error of linear-causal thinking...There is a german word in psychology called "Reaktanz" which means sth like "inner resistance against change from the outside".
• "by trying to get therapists to understand you, you understand yourself." Resonates. I think that's really the key - you allow to show yourself as you are not hiding yourself anymore. It helps and opens up doors that I sometimes not even knew existed.
• The psychologist may tell you that you have an insecure attachment because your parents etc, and you may think: Of course, that's it! But the reality is that this is a conceptual story. You have to see your emotional reality, feel it. As far as I can tell, there is really no way around this. Leave the story and just feel what's there.
• However: Haven't managed to stabilize my state over the years, so can't really trust my own methods : ) Progress, yes but I often wondered how the state I have after meditation retreats can be kept - at least more or less - in the months after. Never managed to do this for a longer time...

Edited Tuesday at 10:46 PM by theleelajoker