Understanding transgenderism.

[Twentyfirst]

15 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Just so we're clear here.

@Twentyfirst @Breakingthewall

You're advocating against treatment that prevents suffering, and suicide even, without you ever doing any research on this subject. You're advocating for people to be harmed.

No I was just asking for clarification. I go to Thailand all the time so I don't really have anything against it. I still think that something that has a low population of people will have trouble gaining traction simply because people don't want to change a lot for a small few

[Elliott]

6 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

I still think that something that has a low population of people will have trouble gaining traction simply because people don't want to change a lot for a small few

Are you referring to bathrooms and sports?

If so, doesn't your argument dissolve into itself, if it's so few people does it make a problem? Not that I'm advocating for males in women's sports, that's a different discussion to me.

Edited April 6 by Elliott

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Elliott said:

Just so we're clear here.

@Twentyfirst @Breakingthewall

You're advocating against treatment that prevents suffering, and suicide even, without you ever doing any research on this subject. You're advocating for people to be harmed.

Probably you are right. The idea of treating a 12-year-old with hormones to block a natural process seems wrong to me by default, but who knows.

[Twentyfirst]

57 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Are you referring to bathrooms and sports?

If so, doesn't your argument dissolve into itself, if it's so few people does it make a problem? Not that I'm advocating for males in women's sports, that's a different discussion to me.

I think that plus they tried to get people to change language and pronouns and used threats, changed Hollywood movies, you would see it pushed on commercials, and basically gloating over a changing future that you will just have to swallow whether you like it or not. In Thailand they don't ask for much of you

If you told the entire country that in one hour a nuke will land and kill everyone...suddenly people will start to care about it. I don't think people will care unless the issue is affecting enough people 

[Elliott]

49 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The idea of treating a 12-year-old with hormones to block a natural process seems wrong to me by default, but who knows.

Same to me.

[Adrian colby]

20 hours ago, D2sage said:

I have a firm, tanned ass to begin with <3 

No, but testosterone and transgenderism is not the same. Mabe he love himself, probably does. But that wont change the fact that trans people are commiting suicide from left to right and taking ilicit, harmful drugs. I did not made up this, its the reality we live in. Look at the data. It shows clearly whats going on among these individuals. Its sad.

I was born this way so I have direct experience of it. Testosterone is neccessary for mood regulation and cognitive function amongst other things. Part of the genetic mutations found in trans people are sex hormone related receptors. If their body is not producing the right ratio of hormone they suffer mood distegulation and insufficient cognitive function. Taking HRT to bring them into the normal range of the sex they claim to be, balances that mechanism. People treated for low testosterone, gonadal dysgenesis and other disorders related to hormone production all report this and the difference HRT makes to their lives. 
I have personal experience of this as I have lived through it and can attest to the drastic improvement it provided. 
suicidal tendencies occured in me in the early stages not because of the condition but because of the lack of care, answers, treatment and inclusion in society I experienced leading me to believe I was not meant to survive here. Self image was distorted by conditioning caused by unrealistic societal/ cultural expectations that I ( or any man actually) could never live up to leading to questioning and feelings of inedequacy. my mood improved enough with the testosterone to get back up on my feet and the rest I can credit to heavy contemplation, psychology study, sexual biology research and spiritual related reality deconstruction to remove any major self deceptions to have better discernment. 
I don’t and have  never taken harmful drugs, drink, smoking, never participated in harmful or destructive activities nor have I ever behaved in a disrespectful, harmful or unliving way toward the people around me. You need to be careful how you interpret the data you come across and the reality of the experience of the actual people it came from. Building an image from data can be misleading and inaccurate. 
 

testosterone for trans men is significantly neccessary and the effects are exactly the same as any man ( like Joe rogan) the problem people have is that they cannot see or refuse to understand why they are actually men. They contain male components as part of their bodies makeup. It needs to be acknowledged and catered for because it directly affects their functioning. 

Edited April 6 by Adrian colby
Typo

[D2sage]

3 hours ago, Adrian colby said:

I don’t and have  never taken harmful drugs, drink, smoking, never participated in harmful or destructive activities nor have I ever behaved in a disrespectful,

This is good. 

I am just looking at the data transgender people have participated in. Shows high-rate, and sadly, even higher rate now due to the new laws..

Perhaps as you say, the inclusion is a huge factor here.

Edited April 6 by D2sage

[Adrian colby]

7 hours ago, Elliott said:

Same to me.

 

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Probably you are right. The idea of treating a 12-year-old with hormones to block a natural process seems wrong to me by default, but who knows.

The treatment is used for premature puberty all the time( not trans related) . A child that goes into puberty early can end up with physical and social issues when they are not in the same range as the rest of their classmates. Sometimes the “natural process “ screws up and needs a bit of help. 

trans kids… same thing. Their natural process is incongruent so it’s better to postpone than jump right in so everyone can be satisfied. early intervention and early treatment has a better overall outcome especially for male to female patients when it’s very hard to correct the secondary characteristics of a male puberty. No one undergoes surgery till around 18. Youngest ever surgery was performed on a 16 year old in Germany. 
 

having spoken to the clinician in the European hospital I attended, I asked about blockers so I could hear it from the horses mouth. They’ve only ever had to use blockers on a trans patient once in the 40 years he’s worked there. 
 

there are dozens of studies on blockers from the premature puberty group and there are no adverse affects so long as they are applied correctly. Having the correct hormones contributes to bone density development. If it is not present, the density decreases and can develop osteoporosis. Blockers are a short term treatment and should not be used over a maximum of 2 years ( there are exceptions but the patient must be monitored monthly if the usage is to be extended due to their own personal circumstances). 
 

again I would posit that the natural process has been subject to a variation in the first place and renders the individual incongruent within their own biology so helping a process that itself has gone awry is not negative or unnecessary. The natural process has gone wrong for the individual so it is being helped back on track. 
 

and also in keeping with previous responses about the hormone receptor mutations found in these people, it is necessary for their regulation to be on the correct hormones to begin with. 
 

im lucky. Because I had gonadal dysgenesis, I did not produce normal levels of oestrogen so my body didn’t develop a feminine structure and I didn’t have to undergo corrective surgery on my chest. If that was not the case then I would certainly have wished that blockers were available back then, in my day because it would have saved me from surgery that could have been prevented. 

[aurum]

On 4/4/2025 at 10:23 PM, Adrian colby said:

@aurum  what i understand currently is that human sexual biology is dimorphic. Every human is born with the same fundamental organs and depending on which genetics are triggered, be it by biological or even environmental factors,  the organs develop one way or another, or should I say more accurately that they develop over a spectrum from female form and beyond into male form( some people get stuck in between for example when the genitals form part the way between female and male it is measured on the ‘Prader’ scale). A penis and clitoris are the same organ at different stages of development.  The gonads can become either ovaries or testis. They both produce testosterone. In the male, testosterone is converted into DHT and in female the testosterone is converted to oestrogen via aromatisation. Depending on the levels of production, the presence of adequate amount of conversion enzyme, a person can get stuck at any point along the spectrum of development. For a trans person ( properly known as GI gender incongruency) genitals, chromosomes and hormone production will be of one sex but they will contain genetic mutations like repeat length mutations in androgen receptor gene, oestrogen receptor gene, cyp17 , aromatase cyp19 which are associated with steroid genesis( hormone production/regulation. 
 

there was a huge argument about the brain sex study 20 years ago when it was found in post-mortem samples, trans brain sections ( bnst-I in the hypothalamus) resembled a neucleus count within the range of the sex the person claimed to be and it was the same before and after hormone therapy. The argument was that due to male and female brain sizes it was impossible to determine differences relative to each other and the widely varying sizes of brains anyway but brain sex was later supported in a recent study using AI and fMRI to identify male and female neurological structures ( not a trans study but a study in a string of studies to try and begin understanding neurological diseases like Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s etc that tend to affect one sex more than the other. 
 

the AI identified the sex of the person with over 90% accuracy from a sample of over a thousand American and the same again, European participants. The write up references 100 other studies looking into the same things between the late 1990’s and 2022.
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2024/02/men-women-brain-organization-patterns.html#

using the new technology, a few trans studies were conducted ( 2023/24) showing neurology in the range of the sex the person claims to be, supporting the studies 20 years ago. 
 

the AI also had a monitoring program to show the researchers how it was identifying the patterns so they could learn what it was that was considered a differentiating region. 
 

I can try dig up those articles but the only one I was involved in was 2014 in Vienna so I know I have the cyp17 mutation. I have a repeat t-c mutation at position 34 on that gene. And so did most of the other trans males. Cis males also had that mutation but cis females didn’t. That was the difference between trans males and cis females. 
more recent studies replicating this showed the gene mutation did not appear in the Spanish population that was tested. 
 

this study was also interesting verifying brain sex looks like it’s wired before birth

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sax-sex/201903/new-study-blows-old-ideas-about-girls-and-boys

at this point it is important to mention mosaic theory. Because a person body contains many components and each of those components have a range of development, you can end up not with a spectrum but with a mosaic of variations. 
 

biological sex and societal influence both shape neurology. Minority stress ( constant surge of cortisone) effects a persons development and it leads to alot of health problems within marginalised or stigmatised populations. 
 

there is a push for gender study to be considered alongside sex study because of this as focus has been on the sexual biology side negating the influence of societal pressures in culture on a persons development leading to greater differentiation in gender role and neurological functions or ability.  This means that the results of early studies which were the result of cultural beleifs on gender stereotypes may have influenced the growing insistence on one sexes ability to do something better than the other, actually shaping that neurological development. 
 

because people contain many dimorphic structures it very hard to tell, if any, that there is a certain pre determined status. We are after all looking at infinite diversity as that is what presents to us from reality before we try to categorise it and standardise it. 
 

I found this article on the history of developments a good base to track down individual studies and also to see the way in which the trends of study went. 
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11440198/

That was helpful, thank you.

[Breathe]

13 hours ago, Elliott said:

Just so we're clear here.

@Twentyfirst @Breakingthewall

You're advocating against treatment that prevents suffering, and suicide even, without you ever doing any research on this subject. You're advocating for people to be harmed.

Exactly.

My recommendation here would be to go hang out with some kind trans folks for a few months and see if you have the same opinion

All I hear on this thread is ignorance

[Breakingthewall]

@Adrian colby

Agreed, if when I was 12 years old the doctor had told me I was going to have a micro penis but with hormone treatment it would be normal, I wouldn't hesitate to take hormones.

From a perspective of ignorance, you think: people should accept themselves as they are, as nature created them, but you could say the same about someone who is born blind and could see with an operation.

We tend to view sexuality as something banal or taken for granted, and the reality is that it is an essential facet of human life that generates enormous amounts of energy, much of which is energy of suffering. It's a very complicated subject, so it's best to respect what is unknown.

[Scholar]

The fact that transgenderism is still a topic that people struggle with makes me very pessimistic about more pressing social justice matters like the persecution of consanguinamorous individuals. 

People struggle with concepts that have a mediocum of complexity to them. The more complex the idea, the harder it is to navigate and the more space there is for bias.

Edited April 7 by Scholar

[D2sage]

Fiddling around with hormones is prolly not a good idea.

"well tolerated" 

There is no cloud out of shape in the sky above.

So why do you think God made the misstake that you were born Man or Woman? I am curious.

I wonder what would happen if someone decide to do the surgery but before they drink a mega pint brewed Ayahuasca - I do wonder if they still will proceed..

Edited April 7 by D2sage

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, D2sage said:

Fiddling around with hormones is prolly not a good idea.

"well tolerated" 

There is no cloud out of shape in the sky above.

So why do you think God made the misstake that you were born Man or Woman? I am curious.

I wonder what would happen if someone decide to do the surgery but before they drink a mega pint brewed Ayahuasca - I do wonder if they still will proceed..

There are people who took plenty of psychedelics who will take hormones. If God and his creation is perfection, then the desire of the transsexual is also perfection. His actions to change his body and take hormones are perfection, because all of that cannot be a mistake, given that God made it so.

See how you apply your logic selectively? It is a perversion of God's will, you should be ashamed that you even put him in his mouth given you are insulting him by conflating his intelligence with your ignorance. Thankfully God made it all so in the end he is insulting himself.

Edited April 7 by Scholar

[Elliott]

1 hour ago, D2sage said:

Fiddling around with hormones is prolly not a good idea.

"well tolerated" 

There is no cloud out of shape in the sky above.

So why do you think God made the misstake that you were born Man or Woman? I am curious.

I wonder what would happen if someone decide to do the surgery but before they drink a mega pint brewed Ayahuasca - I do wonder if they still will proceed..

Putting food in your body is sin.

Your body was created perfect by God, why do you defile it with food?

[D2sage]

1 hour ago, Elliott said:

Putting  food in your body is sin.

Your body was created perfect by God, why do you defile it with food?

For starters, I will starve to death if I dont eat natural food grown from the sunlight. I will be perfectly fine without hormone blockers made by scientist tested on rats.

 

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

It is a perversion of God's will, you should be ashamed that you even put him in his mouth given you are insulting him by conflating his intelligence with your ignorance.

You mistake the map for the terrain.

Edited April 7 by D2sage

[Elliott]

22 minutes ago, D2sage said:

For starters, I will starve to death if I dont eat natural food grown from the sunlight. I will be perfectly fine without hormone blockers made by scientist tested on rats.

Blasphemy, ye of little faith. Perfect is perfect. Everyone dies, ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/signs-of-high-testosterone

levels can cause serious problems in males, such as an enlarged prostate, known as benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). In males, testosterone …

Edited April 7 by Elliott

[D2sage]

1 hour ago, Elliott said:

Blasphemy, ye of little faith. Perfect is perfect. Everyone dies, ashes to aahes, dust to dust.

If perfect is perfect, why treat high testosterone at all?

Even with these "fixes" there is still such a high suicide rate and drug abuse among trans. This is where the shoe pinches.

Edited April 7 by D2sage

[Elliott]

5 minutes ago, D2sage said:

If perfect is perfect, why treat high testosterone at all?

 

Exactly, quit eating food, playing God with these food industry "live longer" schemes. Satan's cheesecake is what it is!

Edited April 7 by Elliott

[D2sage]

1 hour ago, Elliott said:

Exactly, quit eating food,

Quit eating hormone blockers.

Edited April 7 by D2sage