Nine Arguments Against Materialism

[Oppositionless]

4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

All spirituality starts from a false premise: reality is consciousness. Without consciousness, there is no reality, since something exists to the extent that I am conscious of it.

Everyone hears this and exclaims: "Ah, of course, that's obvious!" How can something exist without a conscious creator to create it? It's absolutely impossible. There is no consequence without a cause, therefore the cause is God. Problem solved! Well, it doesn't have to be this way. The expression of the absolute does not need to be conscious to exist, nor does it need a conscious creator to exist. Reality has an absolute nature, and this nature is absolute nothingness, which is unlimited potential. This potential develops inevitably, not because an entity designs it. There may exist infinite absolutely unconscious universes whose existence is just as existent as a conscious universe.

Consciousness is a quality that exists in reality, and it is not fundamental, but an inevitable consequence of the total potential. It is not special. Well, yes, it is special for us who are conscious beings, but we are not consciousness. Consciousness is not absolute, it is relative.

Let's see, you, as an existence, are absolute, but your consciousness is limited, and very limited, just the tip of the iceberg. Is that obvious? There's an unconscious infinity within you. Your true nature is absolute potential; you can become aware of it, or only be aware of the information from your senses or that you want drugs or anything. If there are levels of consciousness, as Leo always says, consciousness is relative. Trying to square a circle is confusing and useless.

 death, real death, the nothingness, the absolute lack of consciousness, is equally alive than life and absolute conciousness . Absolute is absolute, with the lights on or off. 

I'd argue that death isn't a real possibility . When you sleep you don't experience nothingness. You wake up instantly . No time at all passes, there's just a seamless continuity.

If the Absolute didn't already possess consciousness as part of its nature, there would be no consciousness as such. It's not something that arises as a consequence of a series of cause and effect trickling from the Absolute, it's already present.

Edited Tuesday at 06:05 PM by Oppositionless

[sujaykc-01]

George Berkeley's metaphysics, famously expressed as "esse est percipi" (to be is to be perceived), posits that perceived objects are ideas and exist only as they are perceived, rejecting the existence of material substance independent of minds, and asserting that the true cause of phenomena is a spirit, often God. 

Here's a more detailed explanation:

Immaterialism:

Berkeley's core metaphysical claim is that material substance does not exist, and that the objects we perceive are merely collections of ideas or perceptions. 

Idealism:

He argues that everything that exists either is a mind or depends on a mind for its existence. 

"Esse est percipi":

This phrase, meaning "to be is to be perceived," encapsulates Berkeley's view that objects only exist when they are perceived by a mind. 

God as the Ultimate Perceiver:

Berkeley believed that even when humans are not perceiving something, God is, thus ensuring the continued existence of the world. 

Critique of Materialism:

Berkeley rejected the materialist view that objects exist independently of minds, arguing that such a view is untenable and leads to skepticism. 

God's role in perception:

Berkeley's immaterialism implies that the persistence and regularity of the sensible objects that constitute the natural world is independent of all human perception, and that God is perceiving it all.

Focus on the perceived world:

Berkeley's metaphysics is primarily concerned with the nature of the perceived world, including the analysis of perceived objects, space, and the perceptual relationship itself. 

Influence on Science:

Berkeley's philosophy of science focused on concepts like causation, laws of nature, explanation, and the cognitive status of theoretical entities.

 

Images from George Berkeley’s A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, edited by Jonathan Dancy.

[Oppositionless]

3 hours ago, Oppositionless said:

I'd argue that death isn't a real possibility . When you sleep you don't experience nothingness. You wake up instantly . No time at all passes, there's just a seamless continuity.

If the Absolute didn't already possess consciousness as part of its nature, there would be no consciousness as such. It's not something that arises as a consequence of a series of cause and effect trickling from the Absolute, it's already present.

Consciousness both is the absolute and is not fully conscious of itself. There is a structure but it's beyond what physics has been able to study . Cosmopsychism ? A variation of it.

Edited Tuesday at 09:23 PM by Oppositionless

[LastThursday]

@Breakingthewall I thought it would be interesting to get ChatGPT's take on our conversation. Here it is in all its glory (I don't want to clog up this thread with a wall of text):

 

[Someone here]

18 hours ago, LastThursday said:

You are right that consciousness does dream a material universe. Equally, it could potentially dream of a non-material universe where nothing persists, and that wouldn't explain why it chooses materiality over any other sort of dream. I guess psychoactive drugs allows consciousness to express itself differently - but even then it seems to return back to materiality. My thought is that consciousness gets stuck in a habit of materiality.

You see that's irrelevant. That has nothing to do with proving a material objective world. 

Yes ..Consciousness "can" dream of a consistent world or inconsistent world and I don't know why it would choose one over the other . That's not the point sir . The point is that consciousness CAN DREAM OF A MATERIAL PERSISTENT WORLD.

And since that's true then you definitely can explain the appearance of a seemingly Persistent material world under the idealist worldview..Which makes your point that you've made in the post that I've quoted obsolete. 

 

[Breakingthewall]

19 hours ago, Oppositionless said:

I'd argue that death isn't a real possibility . When you sleep you don't experience nothingness. You wake up instantly . No time at all passes, there's just a seamless continuity.

If the Absolute didn't already possess consciousness as part of its nature, there would be no consciousness as such. It's not something that arises as a consequence of a series of cause and effect trickling from the Absolute, it's already present.

19 hours ago, Oppositionless said:

 

I'm not denying it; I'm just saying that the point is to understand that consciousness is not existence, but rather the awareness of reality. Obviously, as you've explained, there is always consciousness, since "always" is precisely consciousness. Non-consciousness is "never," but never and always are exactly the same in order of its nature. It's a nuance that seems silly or unimportant, but it's essential. It is because if you equate reality with consciousness, with "always," with experience, you're trapped. Liberation occurs when you realize that the absolute is not subordinate to consciousness; therefore, there is no creator, nor intention.

There are creators and intentions within the absolute, emanations of the absolute, but the absolute is, and being exists both in the light of consciousness and in the absolute potential of unconsciousness. In fact, it is by realizing the total potential of nothingness outside of consciousness when you open to the absolute.

Actually, the potential is always the same, everything that is perceived is always the absolute, only the form changes, but the essence is exactly the same. The potential is about the form, and conciousness is perception of forms, but those forms are just forms, all are the absolute flowing in itself, like a game of mirrors. Who is creating that game of mirrors? The fact of the reflection, nothing else. As the absolute is, it reflects in itself, if not it would be limited, that's conciousness, what else could be? Anything else is impossible in my opinion, the only possibility is that. 

Edited Wednesday at 01:19 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

14 hours ago, LastThursday said:

@Breakingthewall I thought it would be interesting to get ChatGPT's take on our conversation. Here it is in all its glory (I don't want to clog up this thread with a wall of text):

 

AI finds an essential flaw in my argument: that nothingness is absolute potential, therefore it is not nothing, it is everything. Exactly, that's how it is. Nothingness is a bad choice of word; absence of consciousness would be better.

Nothingness and something are only differentiated by the presence or absence of consciousness. Nothingness exists, since the absence of limits makes the absolute inevitable. Opening yourself to the absolute is what spirituality is about, since basically, the absolute is you.

Are you aware of all the possible forms now? No, since the experience is the awareness of a part. You are a limiter that only perceives what this experience does. If you would perceiving all the possible forms,  you would perceive nothing. Infinity is equal to zero, since the absence of limits of zero implies totality and totality implies nothing specific. In totality, consciousness occurs relatively . If it occurs, it is infinite, like anything else, but it is not primary, not a cause, it's a facet of the absolute 

But the point is: what you are perceiving now is the totality. Always is. The perception of a fly is the totality, because the absolute is absolute, then everything is the absolute. Only the form changes. Then , the absence of perception is also the absolute, but you can't perceive it, obviously. It's just an abstraction, but it's same absolute than the experience . 

The absence of perception would be the absence of form. If there is no movement, perception stops. And? Reality still is. Then movement restart. Well, not restarting because the gap without movement is "never", but it's nature is the same than movement. The fact that always is movement doesn't implied that reality is movement, implies that absence of movement is a gap in the perception that can't be perceived, but this means nothing, reality is beyond the perception 

Edited Wednesday at 01:49 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

15 hours ago, LastThursday said:

@Breakingthewall I thought it would be interesting to get ChatGPT's take on our conversation. Here it is in all its glory (I don't want to clog up this thread with a wall of text):

 

Reality is absolute because limitation is not a possibility. If there were limitation, it means there would be something, and therefore that something would have to have a cause, and that cause another cause, and there would never be a limit to that causal line. This is relativity, cause and effect.

The absolute is beyond cause; it is the inevitable primordial existence that is, since if you eliminate all relativity, the absolute remains, and the absolute is you. There really is always awareness of the absolute, since everything is the absolute, and there is always awareness of something. If reality is absolute, then consciousness is absolute, the same as anything else, like intelligence or creativity, love, life.

Absolute means that the part equals the whole; there is no part, only the appearance of a part. So you can say: reality is consciousness. Okay, accepted. But there is something you cannot say, and that is: consciousness is dreaming reality. Wrong! Then reality would be relative and dreamed by consciousness, which would be a relative cause of a relative consequence.

This mental dynamic is the chains of the relative. To open your mind to the absolute is to break those chains. Everything we're saying is conceptual; it doesn't really mean anything, but there's a mental pathway where the mind connects a series of structures and... voila! It opens, like a lock with the correct combination. Easy, instantaneous. Here and now, the absolute is, and it's you. 

Edited Wednesday at 01:52 PM by Breakingthewall

[Oppositionless]

On 4/1/2025 at 1:01 PM, Oppositionless said:

I'd argue that death isn't a real possibility . When you sleep you don't experience nothingness. You wake up instantly . No time at all passes, there's just a seamless continuity.

If the Absolute didn't already possess consciousness as part of its nature, there would be no consciousness as such. It's not something that arises as a consequence of a series of cause and effect trickling from the Absolute, it's already present.

I think our disagreement was purely semantic. I was equating unconsciousness with consciousness, as a deeper layer of consciousness. I'm essentially saying consciousness and unconsciousness are of the same substance , unconsciousness is just consciousness without content. 
the unconscious aspect of capital c Consciousness is the self-organizing, intelligent aspect of Consciousness. Awareness is the result of the unconscious "divine algorithm" that plays out prior to awareness.

Edited Wednesday at 07:34 PM by Oppositionless

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Oppositionless said:

I'm essentially saying consciousness and unconsciousness are of the same substance , unconsciousness is just consciousness without content.

Then what you mean is that conciousness is movement, experience, and unconsciousness is the lack of movement, but both are the same in different states. Then , that is the absolute. So that implies that reality is not conciousness, conciousness happens in the reality 

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Breakingthewall Yet, all this reality happens in consciousness what is an obvious and indisputable fact.

[Breakingthewall]

13 hours ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@Breakingthewall Yet, all this reality happens in consciousness what is an obvious and indisputable fact.

Or maybe more like: "happen" is the source of consciousness, and the absolute happens because nothing limits it to happen, then inevitably develops it's potential, but "happen" is just it's manifestation, not it's nature. 

Edited 19 hours ago by Breakingthewall