Is Meditation BS?

[AtmanIsBrahman]

Let's think about this.. when you're meditating, you're seeking a change in state of consciousness. You accomplish this by sitting for a long time focusing on certain "anchor points" for your awareness such as sounds, bodily sensations, etc. The mind gets slowed down, which theoretically makes space for higher consciousness and insight. Why slow down the mind? Well, there are 2 reasons I know of:
1) the idea that the mind is hijacked by the ego, so it can't think truthfully, objectively, or without bias
2) Alternatively, absolute truth can't be accessed just by thinking.

Both of these are flawed. 1) is true, but what if we could think without involving the ego? 2) Depends on what we consider thinking to be. If we consider it linear egoic thinking of tier 1 spiral dynamics stages, then yes, but if the concept of thinking is expanded to higher-dimensional thinking, it's a completely different matter.

Here's the main issue with standard meditation practices from my point of view. You're essentially turning the consciousness dial down instead of up. My guess is that doing so can get you to certain insights like no-self (in some basic sense) or states of no-mind, but you're practically lobotomizing yourself. These are the spiritual Buddhist rats that Leo talks about . The goal should be to turn up that consciousness dial as much as possible. The higher your it gets turned up, the better your thinking is- the more expansive, deep, penetrating, interconnected, multidimensional, paradoxical. And spirituality is about truth-seeking, which is ultimately going to revolve around thinking in some way (of course people will debate this). You are trying to have the most complete understanding of reality possible, and the way to achieve that is by thinking in ever more advanced ways as aided by spiritual practices, since baseline human consciousness isn't enough.

The main way to do this is psychedelics, but for those of us who don't have access, I wonder if there are other spiritual practices that could be more effective than standard meditation. Here are some ideas:

• Emotionally stimulating music, video clips, or movies- not usually thought of as spiritual, but why wouldn't it be? Of course, you have to be careful that they're stimulating in a highly conscious way, not in a reptilian way.
• Tantric-style sexual practices- sexuality is a tool, so why not use it?
• Shamanic breathing/ breathwork
• Contemplation infused with the benefits of one of the above

There are definitely many other practices I'm not thinking of, but the theme is the same: you are trying to supercharge the thinking process, to access hyper-thinking. You want thinking to be as fast as possible, not slowed down due to some relaxed, calm mediation state. If you're looking for health and well-being, standard meditation might be a great practice, but for awakening I have my doubts, as heretical as it sounds.
If anyone has arguments for why meditation is a great practice, or knows of any other fringe spiritual practices, I'd be glad to hear about them. Is the premise that thinking is important for awakening wrong? Please debunk my claims.

 

[Breakingthewall]

Meditation is essential, and for several reasons. First, in the beginning, your mind is a whirlwind of interpretation, obsessive circular thinking, and the emotions this triggers. You strive hard to spend 30 minutes in silence day after day, achieving nothing but stress, but you still do it because you perceive that you must tame this chaos.

Then, as you meditate, you begin to realize that you can look inside yourself. You don't look outside at thoughts, memories about external things, or emotions that certain events provoked. Instead, you see the very structure of your psyche, the layers of emotional and conceptual structure that form a solid framework that produces a constant vibration that you perceive as thought and emotion. Some psychedelic are extreme useful here. 

Then there comes a time when after a while you relax and your mind expands, you are able to spend a long time enjoying the pleasure of being yourself in silence.

And then, perhaps with or without a little psychedelic, it happens that at a given moment, the structure of the psyche dissolves, and the present moment merges with the mind, and there is no difference between mind and reality. The human is left out; there is no time, no causality, no will, or preference, only absolute being. And that absolute being reveals itself as unfathomable, and its power is total, since it has no limits. The content of the experience is irrelevant; only images that appear. The absolute being is everything, and you are that.

[AtmanIsBrahman]

@Breakingthewall
Interesting explanation. Do you think of meditation as going deeper inside yourself then rather than turning off thoughts?

[Jodistrict]

1 hour ago, AtmanIsBrahman said:

Here's the main issue with standard meditation practices from my point of view. You're essentially turning the consciousness dial down instead of up. My guess is that doing so can get you to certain insights like no-self (in some basic sense) or states of no-mind, but you're practically lobotomizing yourself. These are the spiritual Buddhist rats that Leo talks about . The goal should be to turn up that consciousness dial as much as possible. The higher your it gets turned up, the better your thinking is- the more expansive, deep, penetrating, interconnected, multidimensional, paradoxical. And spirituality is about truth-seeking, which is ultimately going to revolve around thinking in some way (of course people will debate this). You are trying to have the most complete understanding of reality possible, and the way to achieve that is by thinking in ever more advanced ways as aided by spiritual practices, since baseline human consciousness isn't enough.
 

 

Both psychedelics and meditation reduce brain activity, especially in the default mode network.  It’s this reduction that allows for higher consciousness to emerge.

·  Carhart-Harris et al. (2012, 2014) – Showed that psilocybin reduces DMN activity, leading to ego dissolution.

·  Brewer et al. (2011) – Found that experienced meditators showed reduced DMN activity similar to psychedelics.

·  Palhano-Fontes et al. (2015) – Showed that ayahuasca reduces DMN activity, linked to mystical experiences.

[ExploringReality]

No meditation is not bs.

The mind will do anything to justify it's avoidance mechanism and to distract itself from meditating.

[Daniel Balan]

I meditated for a year straight in 2018. And I can say I got 0 benefits from it. And I'm much more happier since I dropped meditation all together. 

It's just my opinion. But I always try to remain as mindful as possible at every second. I try to always observe my thoughts and my bodily sensations. 

[Breakingthewall]

49 minutes ago, AtmanIsBrahman said:

@Breakingthewall
Interesting explanation. Do you think of meditation as going deeper inside yourself then rather than turning off thoughts?

Yes, turning off thoughts is impossible because they are an effect, not a cause. Self-help tells you: don't think negatively and you won't have negative emotions. It's impossible. You're not thinking negatively. Thoughts, negative or not, are vibrations that arise from an energetic structure that is your psyche, which has genetic foundations and is created around interaction with the environment, creating a hyper-complex structure with very deep ramifications.

Trying to influence thoughts is trying to influence the tip of the iceberg, thinking that tip is the entire iceberg. Meditation makes you begin to see these structures, to become aware of yourself, and in this way, begin to open them, to enter the source code and look at it directly. Over time, this creates a different vibration, less and less dense, and when the density is tenuous enough, equalization occurs.

[Yimpa]

Quote

Is Meditation BS?

It depends on your perspective.

Are psychedelics BS if you want to quiet your mind? Yes.

Is meditation BS if you want to quiet your mind? No.

[Nemra]

Meditation is nothing compared with psychedelics for awakening.

The effects of psychedelics are just too radical, instant, mind-melting, beautiful, otherworldly, highly direct, etc.

However, I think meditation may be helpful to understand the workings of your ego and develop your concentration.

If you do long retreats, you may have some realizations or insights, but they would never ever be like those ones that psychedelics offer.

Furthermore, you have to consider many factors to know which one, when, and for what purposes is right for you.

I haven't meditated for about a year. For now I don't see myself gaining anything from it. I would rather work on my career and life, have a bit of fun, learn and understand interesting stuff, and have awakenings than tire myself with meditation with little to no results.

To be able to seriously meditate, first of all, you have to want it, and second, you have to calculate a lot of stuff so that you don't easily get distracted.

FYI, I have done a meditation retreat for a month before at home for about 5 hours or more per day, as I can remember. Although I did daily meditations for short periods of time regardless of the retreat.

Edited yesterday at 08:49 PM by Nemra

[Princess Arabia]

3 hours ago, ExploringReality said:

No meditation is not bs.

The mind will do anything to justify it's avoidance mechanism and to distract itself from meditating.

What is telling the mind it needs to meditate?

[Princess Arabia]

2 hours ago, Yimpa said:

It depends on your perspective.

Are psychedelics BS if you want to quiet your mind? Yes.

Is meditation BS if you want to quiet your mind? No.

What/Who's saying all that?

[Aaron p]

For god realisation yeah, for mind stabilisation and fundamental grounding type work, is very useful. Also most people will never realise god at the deepest levels. Even the likes of myself, I'm not going for god realisation yet and I'm a hardcore fan of enlightenment.

You have to remember how hardcore real god realisation is. It is scary as fuck. And there's a chance of you actually dying or loosing your shit. It's pretty serious...so for most people meditation is going to have some use probably 

Edited 22 hours ago by Aaron p

[tuku747]

Meditate on increasing your state of consciousness.

Duh.

[Princess Arabia]

I like his take.

[Princess Arabia]

29 minutes ago, ExploringReality said:

What are the assumptions you hold of your question? 

Talking to me. You have to tag or I won't know.

[ExploringReality]

@Princess Arabia

The mind loves to bullshit itself once it has reached a degree of Awakening, it will come up with all sorts of rationalizations and excuse making for not doing the practices and staying disciplined. Once the ego mind gets a little hit on no self or nothingness, it tends to form a spiritual identity and to stop at a certain point of its understanding of reality.

No self is good but it's only the tip of an iceberg

 

 

Edited 21 hours ago by ExploringReality

[Princess Arabia]

3 minutes ago, ExploringReality said:

@Princess Arabia 

You said "I", what happened to no self?

If the no self is trying to not say "I", that means there's a self. Plus, where did I claim to not have a self. If I write about no I, or no one, doesn't mean I'm saying there's no I here but one over there. There's an I here doesn't mean the I is doing the I. I don't need to pretend to not be, saying I comes naturally for no one.

[ExploringReality]

@Princess Arabia

What are your Metaphysical and epistemic assumptions on your position? 

 

[Princess Arabia]

7 minutes ago, ExploringReality said:

@Princess Arabia

The mind loves to bullshit itself once it has reached a degree of Awakening, it will come up with all sorts of rationalizations and excuse making for not doing the practices and staying disciplined. Once the ego mind gets a little hit on no self or nothingness, it tends to form a spiritual identity and to stop at a certain point of its understanding of reality.

No self is good but it's only the tip of an iceberg

 

 

You're obviously repeating from something you've heard without having a full understanding of what it is you're actually saying. The egoic mind cannot get a hit of it's own non-existence. What is it that can know there is no self. Definitely not the self. You're right about a spiritual identity but that happens on it's own because there is no ego and a separate thing called a spiritual identity. Doing practices and staying disciplined is also a construct of the mind. 

 

[Princess Arabia]

9 minutes ago, ExploringReality said:

@Princess Arabia

What are your Metaphysical and epistemic assumptions on your position? 

 

On what position. Any position I hold is illusory because there are no real positions to hold in timelessness and boundlessness' and all that is.