So tired of gurus telling me I need to suffer first to deserve happiness

[Basman]

Leo tortures himself and in return we get a bunch of juicy content for free.

The art of the deal!

[gettoefl]

If life is good, you will be content with a happy life and not find a blissful life.

Suffering is blessing from this perspective.

All ye who enter here are suffering.

[Jodistrict]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Psychedelics have their own suffering.

But psychedelics are not enough for this work. Psychedelics are just the beginning.

You cannot skip the tortures if you want serious embodiment.

Shinzen Young analyzes this as a utilitarian equation.   When he was in Japan, he had to meditate 24/7 for six months in the middle of winter in an unheated room.   He said the payoff was good because when you add up all the little sufferings he has avoided since that meditation, the six months of suffering turns out to be a small amount of suffering in comparison.   When you look at the big picture, going for awareness is a non brainer.  The amount of suffering life is going to inevitably throw at all of us is unlimited in an unwakened state.

Edited 23 hours ago by Jodistrict

[Breakingthewall]

I was trying to watch this video because I think Tyson is an interesting guy. I read his book, Undisputed Truth, and it's very profound. But Sadhguru is atrocious. I can't listen to him; it sends me into a depression. He's a real scammer.

When the video starts, he starts with self-help, since his business isn't spirituality, it's self-help: you don't suffer because of your environment, you suffer because you're choosing to suffer. You're the one who suffers, therefore, you decide whether you suffer or not. This guy doesn't understand what reality is, what interconnectedness is. He thinks he's an island. I'd like to see him in a nigerian prison with 12 years old to see what he thinks. He doesn't understand the nature of suffering. He doesn't understand that humans are an interconnected entity.

He says some stupid thing like, "If a guy insults you in a language you don't know, would you get angry?" "So why do you get angry if someone insults you in your own language?" Yes, and if a guy told you in Chinese that tomorrow they were going to impale your entire family in front of you and then roast you on a grill, would you get angry? Spirituality is a joke, they're all fake, it's a disgrace.

[AION]

One has to be so masochistic that it has to love the suffering of the cross

[Yimpa]

Just now, AION said:

One has to be so masochistic that it has to love the suffering of the cross

Could also just sit criss-cross and contemplate what Love is.

[Someone here]

Yes the gurus are fooling you if they tell you do this to be happy . Happiness is an illusion . there is no happiness in this world .this has been established.  Happiness is somewhere else...

[Breakingthewall]

Suffering isn't a problem; it can be stimulating. The problem is the emptiness of life, the sadness, the nihilism, the depression, and the loneliness. More than suffering, it's that your life has no purpose or meaning, and that living is a burden. This happens to many people, to millions, because they were not smart enough to realize that they were in a wrong path, and in a given moment there is not solution 

[AION]

25 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Could also just sit criss-cross and contemplate what Love is.

Love is just a by-product. Contemplating how to get sun light won't get you sunlight. Just go outside and stand in the sun when it comes up.

[Flowerfaeiry]

20 hours ago, Shodburrito said:

I don't need anyone's permission to exist as I choose or to experience pleasure now.

I think this sentence is where the truth of this post lies. Personally, I sought and sought for years looking for the thing that would finally make me happy until I realized: shocker! I could actually just be happy right now. 
 

But I kinda don’t know if I would have been able to realize that if I hadn’t been seeking for so long. So I still see the value in seeking. 
 

That being said there’s still so much more to go and it’s not necessarily that simple. 

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Something Funny said:

If one were to do this, would you eat and cook or do you just drink water?

I cook.

Activities like cooking, showering, driving also present good opportunities to keep practicing your meditation while in action.

5 hours ago, The Renaissance Man said:

 

@Leo Gura you said many times pick-up was atrocious for you. Was that really a bee sting compared to the cost of awakening and meditating for two weeks straight?

Pickup was very challenging for me. But pickup is also fun. The awakening work is very boring.

Quote

Would you call going to the gym and training until you're almost throwing up suffering? 

Yes

5 hours ago, Joshe said:

This reminded me of this: 

"Traditional virtue often involves conscious effort - trying to be good, kind, or ethical through willpower and intention. It's like constantly checking yourself against a moral compass and adjusting your behavior accordingly.

Natural virtue," by contrast, emerges spontaneously from clear perception and understanding. When you truly see a situation clearly, the right action presents itself as the most straightforward and practical response. 

Vernon Howard told a story about a young man who kept getting pulled over for not wearing his seatbelt. Each time, he was baffled, convinced the cops were unfairly targeting him. But the truth was—he wasn't seeing reality clearly. The law existed for his protection, not to restrict his freedom. If he had truly understood the situation rather than resisting it, wearing the seatbelt wouldn't have felt like an external rule to follow—it would have simply been the obvious thing to do, like carrying an umbrella in the rain or wearing a coat in winter. His resistance wasn't to the rule itself, but to his misperception of why the rule existed.

This explains why wisdom is so valuable. It transforms virtue from a constant effort of will into a natural expression of clear understanding.

Instead of being caught in the chaotic cycle of desire, moral calculation, and bad outcomes, the wise person is spared the headache of constantly colliding with reality.

When we see clearly (wisdom), our actions naturally harmonize with how things actually are. This alignment with reality has several benefits:

1. It eliminates the internal conflict that comes from fighting against what is. The young man fighting the seatbelt law creates his own suffering through resistance to reality.
2. It resolves the artificial separation between knowing what's right and doing what's right. When perception is clear, action follows naturally without the need for willpower or moral calculation.
3. It creates a kind of freedom—not freedom from rules, but freedom from the constant internal struggle of forcing ourselves to comply with external standards. (reminds me of House, M.D. )

"

This is why wisdom is so badass. It's freedom. 

Yup. Of course.

2 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

Shinzen Young analyzes this as a utilitarian equation.   When he was in Japan, he had to meditate 24/7 for six months in the middle of winter in an unheated room.   He said the payoff was good because when you add up all the little sufferings he has avoided since that meditation, the six months of suffering turns out to be a small amount of suffering in comparison.

I did that math and found that I would have suffered less had I just never did spirituality. Maybe in 20 years that calculus will change.

Life can be made very comfortable these days.

The problem with Shinzen's analysis is that 6 months of meditation will not end your suffering. It's debatable what the actual benefit is. That will vary wildly by person.

Edited 22 hours ago by Leo Gura

[The Renaissance Man]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I did that math and found that I would have suffered less had I just never did spirituality.

Wouldn't the lack of meaning of life crush you? The fear of death? That when you think about the future, and a big part of wisdom is long-term thinking, being constantly reminded of the meaninglessness of everything you're doing?

Maybe Awakening won't satisfy that need for meaning. I don't know, I haven't taken the spiritual path yet. But even just the pursuit of meaning and truth feels (only feels, I don't know) better than this constant and crushing lack of meaning.

But maybe with some effort I could just suppress it like 99% of people, and it would be less effort than dealing with spirituality. You did your math after all.

PS - I now get what you mean by the word suffering, thanks for the clarification

Edited 21 hours ago by The Renaissance Man

[UnbornTao]

But isn't pleasure something distinct from happiness? Can you find pain -- and thus, likely suffering -- underlying the search for pleasure?

Can one suffer and still be happy regardless? That would certainly place "happiness" in an unconventional category relative to how it is commonly understood.

Essentially, what are they? 

Edited 21 hours ago by UnbornTao

[freddyteisen]

@Leo Gura So all those years of meditation, boredom, suffering etc… it’s debatable what the benefits actually were,

compared to just enjoying life / having more fun/playing? Instead of sitting in strict meditation like Shinzen young?

Edited 21 hours ago by freddyteisen

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, The Renaissance Man said:

Wouldn't the lack of meaning of life crush you? The fear of death? That when you think about the future, and a big part of wisdom is long-term thinking, being constantly reminded of the meaninglessness of everything you're doing?

Maybe Awakening won't satisfy that need for meaning. I don't know, I haven't taken the spiritual path yet. But even just the pursuit of meaning and truth feels (only feels, I don't know) better than this constant and crushing lack of meaning.

There is no other option for me. I will always pursue truth and understanding no matter what the suffering.

Yes, what you call meaning is the point for me.

The real reward of this work is not minimization of suffering, it is the profound appreciation of God.

If all you look at is suffering vs pleasure, this work doesn't make sense. But if you factor in the comprehension of God, it's the only path that makes sense.

13 minutes ago, freddyteisen said:

@Leo Gura So all those years of meditation, boredom, suffering etc… it’s debatable what the benefits actually were,

compared to just enjoying life / having more fun/playing? Instead of sitting in strict meditation like Shinzen young?

It's debatable if all you're looking at it pleasure vs suffering.

I don't do this work for those reasons. I do it for truth and understanding.

---------

People who frame this work as about suffering or even happiness do understand the depth of the work. This work is about metaphysical connection with God.

Edited 21 hours ago by Leo Gura

[The Renaissance Man]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, what you call meaning is the point for me.

The real reward of this work is not minimization of suffering, it is the profound appreciation of God.

Now that you make me think about it this search for "meaning" is just the search for the answer to "what the hell is all this???".

So the search for meaning and for truth may not be that different when you look into it.

Edited 21 hours ago by The Renaissance Man

[Leo Gura]

The search for meaning is the search for consciousness of yourself as God.

Last night I sat for an hour on my couch just stunned by my consciousness of God. This is a level of profoundity nobody understands.

You are God and you just sitting there is infinitely profound, if only you develop enough understanding to inferface with it.

It's not even about truth, it's about being God. Being God is more meaningful than any human meaning. Nothing has meaning next to God. Your experience of reality becomes divine and metaphysical, not human. That's what I suffer for. Suffering is just the ticket price to God's Disneyland.

Edited 21 hours ago by Leo Gura

[The Renaissance Man]

Thanks for the distinction. Can't wait to realize this for myself in a few years

[Davino]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not even about truth, it's about being God. Being God is more meaningful than any human meaning. Nothing has meaning next to God.

I remember once I become so God Conscious the only word I could say was God, the only thought I could think was God.

I remember laughing at myself visualizing how my life would be from now on. Going to a bakery and asking for a God please. God thank you. God had all the meanings in it.

Edited 20 hours ago by Davino

[Someone here]

45 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The search for meaning is the search for consciousness of yourself as God.

Last night I sat for an hour on my couch just stunned by my consciousness of God. This is a level of profoundity nobody understands.

You are God and you just sitting there is infinitely profound, if only you develop enough understanding to inferface with it.

It's not even about truth, it's about being God. Being God is more meaningful than any human meaning. Nothing has meaning next to God. Your experience of reality becomes divine and metaphysical, not human. That's what I suffer for. Suffering is just the ticket price to God's Disneyland.

 Beautiful brother! But Leo I have a question..the way you are describing it here appeals to the ego..as if God is only rainbows and butterflies..isn't full consciousness of God reveals that God Is also by virtue of being all that there could ever possibly exist and more ..I say doesn't that mean God has an ugly side if you flip the coin on the Beautiful side ? God is no more beauty and profundity than it is anguish.. Stress.. Pain..sickness.. Death.. Murder.. Rape.. Theft.. Cancer.. Sorrow...depression.. Madness.. Loneliness.. Disability.. Disasters.. Chaos.. Hell.