If we live in the same world ..why nobody agrees on anything?

[Nilsi]

58 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I don’t think people actually disagree all that much about the Absolute.

I can sit down with my Muslim friends, with Leo, with a bunch of European philosophers, and we’ll all more or less vibe on the same core thing - maybe even agree on some fundamental properties. But the second we start talking about what that means for how we should live - who gets to speak for it, who gets to lead, what counts as alignment - suddenly it’s war. That to me is the real issue

This, to me, is what Jesus really meant when he said “love thy neighbor.”

A neighbor isn’t some idealized figure. A neighbor is the guy who plays loud music at night, has politics you can’t stand, maybe smells a little weird. And still - there’s this quiet recognition that somehow, in all our chaos and contradiction, we’re participating in the same mystery.

My Muslim friends and I roast each other all the time. I’ll joke about how wild it is to believe a book is the literal truth, they’ll tell me I’m going to burn in hell forever, claim they’re more manly, I’ll fire back that we Europeans are more refined, whatever. It’s all love. They still invite me to iftar, feed me, look out for me.

That’s the formula right there. Real love isn’t about pretending we’re all the same, or smoothing over the differences with fake admiration. It’s being able to laugh at those differences, name them, and still choose each other.

That’s why, when Jesus is asked before the crucifixion, “How will we know you’re with us?” - he doesn’t say “when you’re pure” or “when you follow the rules.” He says, “When there is love between you, I will be there.”

And honestly, you don’t even have to keep the Christian frame. Just treat people like people. It’s not rocket science.

[Eskilon]

12 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I don’t think people actually disagree all that much about the Absolute.

Lol of course they do, do people agree that rape or beheading a child is absolute truth? Don't kid yourself.

[Nilsi]

Just now, Eskilon said:

Lol of course they do, do people agree that rape or beheading a child is absolute truth? Don't kid yourself.

I’ve never in my entire life heard anyone claim that rape or beheading a child has anything to do with absolute truth. So honestly, I don’t see your point.

[Eskilon]

3 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I’ve never in my entire life heard anyone claim that rape or beheading a child has anything to do with absolute truth. So honestly, I don’t see your point.

Whether you heard of it or not doesn't matter much. It is the case. If you say that to any average religious person or new ager they will freak out. That's your proof that people don't agree on the absolute. Yet.

Edited Saturday at 09:24 PM by Eskilon

[Nilsi]

6 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

Wheter you heard of it or not doesn't matter much. It is the case. If you say that to any average religious person or new ager they will freak out. That's your proof that people don't agree on the absolute. Yet.

Again, I don’t see what your example has to do with the Absolute. You’re making an ethical argument - which, as I already said in the comment you quoted, is exactly where disagreements happen.

When it comes to the Absolute as such, I’ve honestly never had a real argument with anyone. It’s just true - the only challenge is translating it into a language the other person understands. When I’m talking to my Muslim friends, I’ll say Allah is all-powerful, omniscient, etc. When I’m talking to secular friends, I’ll say the universe is infinite, unknowable, beyond comprehension, etc. etc.

There’s no real conflict on that level. The fights only start when people start turning that shared sense of the Absolute into ideology - that’s when people go for each other’s throats.

Edited Saturday at 09:30 PM by Nilsi

[Breakingthewall]

15 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

Lol of course they do, do people agree that rape or beheading a child is absolute truth? Don't kid yourself.

They would agree that those situations are aspects of the absolute, it's impossible denying 

[Eskilon]

11 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Again, I don’t see what your example has to do with the Absolute. You’re making an ethical argument - which, as I already said in the comment you quoted, is exactly where disagreements happen.

When it comes to the Absolute as such, I’ve honestly never had a real argument with anyone. It’s just true - the only challenge is translating it into a language the other person understands. When I’m talking to my Muslim friends, I’ll say Allah is all-powerful, omniscient, etc. When I’m talking to secular friends, I’ll say the universe is infinite, unknowable, beyond comprehension, etc. etc.

There’s no real conflict on that level. The fights only start when people start turning that shared sense of the Absolute into rules, ethics, and authority - that’s when people go for each other’s throats.

Yeah I agree with you that conflit happens when people starts to translate the absolute into survival.

But my point is, often times people don't really grasp the meaning of the word "Absolute" let alone an experience of it. The absolute, by definition, must include everything, all forms and formlessness. So it is absolutely everything, including all the 'evil' and 'ugly' stuff. All your fears and suffering are it. And of course it is all the joys, orgarsms and many things more that you cannot even begin to comprehend or imagine. When people talk about the absolute, they mostly leaves the ugly stuff at the door, and talk about the good stuff and the inefable. That's a wrong framing if you really want to 'understand' the absolute and appreciate the significance of it.

Edited Saturday at 09:40 PM by Eskilon

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

I don’t think people actually disagree all that much about the Absolute.

I can sit down with my Muslim friends, with Leo, with a bunch of European philosophers, and we’ll all more or less vibe on the same core thing - maybe even agree on some fundamental properties. But the second we start talking about what that means for how we should live - who gets to speak for it, who gets to lead, what counts as alignment - suddenly it’s war. That to me is the real issue

I really wanted to use the word "metaphysics", but I accepted the framing.

[Nilsi]

1 minute ago, Eskilon said:

Yeah I agree with you that conflit happens when people starts to translate the absolute into survival.

But my point is, often times people don't really grasp the meaning of the word "Absolute" let alone an experience of it. The absolute, by definition, must include everything, all forms and formlessness. So it is absolutely everything, including all the 'evil' and 'ugly' stuff. All your fears and suffering are it. And of course it is all the joys, orgarsms and many things more that you can even begin to comprehend. When people talk about the absolute, they mostly leaves the ugly stuff at the door, and talk about the good stuff and the inefable. That's a wrong framing if you really want to 'understand' the absolute.

I get it. But still, in my experience, when you speak to people with real empathy - and in a language they can actually relate to - you can walk them through all of this, and you’ll usually find total common ground in the Absolute.

That’s my point. And I actually think it’s a pretty important ontological one.

[Nilsi]

17 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I really wanted to use the word "metaphysics", but I accepted the framing.

By the way, don’t you want to respond to my point about psychoanalysis in your thread on your scientific work? I could really use your perspective to make some progress there.

[Eskilon]

26 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I get it. But still, in my experience, when you speak to people with real empathy - and in a language they can actually relate to - you can walk them through all of this, and you’ll usually find total common ground in the Absolute.

I see. There are trade offs when being subtle or in your face when communicating spirituality. Kinda like Sadhguru and Leo when they are talking about god. One is subtle and the other is in your face and don't leave out anything. To be honest, if I had a child I too would approach with empathy and care rather than being the most direct and dropping harsh truths. It's so funny becasue this is exactly what god is doing being so fucking subtle not to scare the shit out of you 

Edited Saturday at 10:08 PM by Eskilon

[Breakingthewall]

28 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

To be honest, if I had a child I too would approach with empathy and care rather than being the most direct and dropping harsh truths.

If I had a child, I would show him or her the truth of life: its bright side and its dark side. I would tell him that life, in part, is pain, and that pain has no limits. That he is alive, and not a mentally retarded person who should be lobotomized with a rosy vision of reality for sleepy, fearful people who hide from the depths of life. And I would show him that in the core of life there is beauty, even in pain sadness and death.

Edited Saturday at 10:29 PM by Breakingthewall