Ken Wilber says Trump is Stage Green?

[Elliott]

Do you think Trump knows that it would be okay if we had open borders? Or, if we embraced Chinese manufacturing?

[Nilsi]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You just don't know what a con-artist is.

They are a special breed of animal.

Also, I’m not saying all postmodernists are con-artists. I’m saying all con-artists grasp some amount of relativity, which can't be taken for granted and makes the argument that they’re Stage Green - at least in terms of their manipulation of objective reality and perception - valid in my book.

I'm literally just applying Ken Wilbers theory to this discussion. And you're the Wilber fanboy, who's starting these discussions, so leave me alone! lol  

Edited Monday at 11:05 PM by Nilsi

[Elliott]

5 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

It’s not my views that are absurd. I clearly despise Trump and Alex Jones.

It’s these models that are absurd. I can’t help but make these arguments in the context of this discussion.

Sorry, I was referring to the position you were playing devils advocate with.

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I’m a salesman, lol. I could write a whole PhD-thesis on con-artistry.

Your PhD-thesis gets an F.

Back to the blackboard for you.

Edited Monday at 11:08 PM by Leo Gura

[jakee]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The meme approach is nice in that it feels less linear and pre-desitined. With Wilber's stages they feel like this is the only way a human can evolve with no alternatives -- because this is how consciousness evolve. While memes feel like they could be different because there could be many different cultures and combinations of memes. So I actually feel Wilber's model is more linear and rigid.

I think the problem of rigid structures is fixed with the distinction of deep vs. surface structures. Deep structures are those basic capacities of a given stage. Green deep structure is the ability to handle woldcentric perspectives etc. But it can show up as different kinds of surface manifestations based on cultural and societal backgrounds. 

How deep vs. shallow any given holon is, can be assessed based on e.g how novel it is historically. Blue is way more deep than Green. And the leading edge is always finding its form. Wilber doesn't see the stages as a Platonic pre-given constructs waiting to be found, but as a Spirit evolving and unfolding in all the quadrants.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, jakee said:

Wilber doesn't see the stages as a Platonic pre-given constructs waiting to be found, but as a Spirit evolving and unfolding in all the quadrants.

I don't see much difference there.

His model implies that Spirit evolves in a very specific rigid linear way. It's almost cartoonish.

Edited Monday at 11:16 PM by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura Does he though?

[jakee]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

His model implies that Spirit evolves in a very specific rigid linear way.

I'm not sure what you mean by rigidity here.

For me it just means that there's a certain logic in the unfolding of Reality/Spirit. The logic is basically the 12 tenets of evolution as explained by Wilber in SES. Every holon - whether psychological or not, exists in a holarchy. There can't be woldcentrism without it being built on lower holons of socio-/groupcentrism etc. Can't have cells before atoms. I think those are the somewhat rigid deep structures. And the "atoms and cells" can form infinite kinds of shallow structures. 

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I think your view is heavily skewed by today's Green position's retroactive view of Marx.

Back in Marx's era Green didn't even exist.

If you want an objective and factual analysis of this matter, just as your fave AI.

Our view of Marx today is colored through the Green lens. So Marx looks Green. Because Orange capitalism won the cultural battle over Marxism. So Marxism had to retreat to Green to stay alive.

A stage green culture and society would only form if enough people reached a psychological development to that stage. Stage yellow and turquoise societies don’t exist today but there are a small minority of people at that stage.

Marx exemplifies green in his philosophy being anti-hierarchal and demonizing wealthy and powerful. He even questioned the patriarchal structure of the family from that period. He bashed the stage blue and orange systems of his time such as Christianity and Adam Smith, but also didn’t understand the higher teachings of someone like Hegel and said he was bringing him to earth. 

Obviously due to the context of the society he was brought up in he would have views in line with lower stages today.

 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

I'm not sure what you mean by rigidity here.

For me it just means that there's a certain logic in the unfolding of Reality/Spirit. The logic is basically the 12 tenets of evolution as explained by Wilber in SES. Every holon - whether psychological or not, exists in a holarchy. There can't be woldcentrism without it being built on lower holons of socio-/groupcentrism etc. Can't have cells before atoms. I think those are the somewhat rigid deep structures. And the "atoms and cells" can form infinite kinds of shallow structures. 

That's exactly what I mean.

[integral]

3 hours ago, Nilsi said:

Lol.

I genuinely don’t see your point. Con-artistry requires a subjectivity that grasps relativism. This is Piaget’s post-formal mode of development, which Wilber himself correlates with Stage Green.

You’re acting like being a con artist doesn’t take intelligence. Most people aren’t con artists.

as a child we all lied like crazy to get what we wanted and bent the truth and told the story in a way that favoured us.

that’s all Trump is doing there’s nothing relativistic about it.

[integral]

Trump does not believe there are more than one truth in any Situation.

understanding someone else’s perspective to exploit it is not the same as acknowledging that perspective as true.

Relativism means someone acknowledges the truth is completely relative from the perspective that it’s being viewed from,

Trump has no interest in truth at All, he has no opinion either way because believing something to be true doesn’t serve his agenda.

You’re confusing not caring about truth with relativism.

Edited Tuesday at 02:58 AM by integral

[Lyubov]

Keep in mind the SD model can fall apart sometimes when applied in different ways and it also isn't the best for understanding internal division. I also think it falls short of understanding the belief system behind corruption. 

[Ero]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't see much difference there.

His model implies that Spirit evolves in a very specific rigid linear way. It's almost cartoonish.

I realized I was taking for granted the fact that you are the only teacher who hasn’t crystallised on a single rigid model.

I haven’t had the opportunity to thank you for being a constant source of epistemic novelty.

It is what has largely prevented me from falling down formulaic model dynamics. Your alien awakenings were a really strong perturbation to my sense-making and a piece in the intellectual cascade that inspired the algorithmic improvements that made me rich.

Edited Tuesday at 03:25 AM by Ero

[Leo Gura]

Here I found some not so good takes from the Integral people on Trump/Musk.

They basically think that Trump/Musk might be good for creating change. They have no spine to resist Trump nor do they recognize MAGA as corruption. Their approach is to just go along for the ride and hope everything works out. Just kinda let Trump/MAGA just have their way. There is no recognition of democratic backsliding and serious potential for danger. Their position is like: "Well, I drive a Tesla and it's so cool. So just let Musk do this thing. Might turn out good. The MAGA people didn't like Kamala." Just be friendly to everybody. Tier 2!

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:33 AM by Leo Gura

[Staples]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Here I found some not so good takes from the Integral people on Trump/Musk.

They basically think that Trump/Musk might be good for creating change. They have no spine to resist Trump nor do they recognize MAGA as corruption. Their approach is to just go along for the ride and hope everything works out. Just kinda let Trump/MAGA just have their way. There is no recognition of democratic backsliding and serious potential for danger. Their position is like: "Well, I drive a Tesla and it's so cool. So just let Musk do this thing. Might turn out good. The MAGA people didn't like Kamala." Just be friendly to everybody. Tier 2!

 

Intellectuals are often naive and weak.

How can one claim to be an integral thinker when they have no grasp on what evil is? 

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Staples said:

Intellectuals are often naive and weak.

How can one claim to be an integral thinker when they have no grasp on what evil is? 

Spiral Stupidity

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura uh oh. Integral Bullshit tier stupid

Edited Tuesday at 04:06 AM by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

If they had Spiral Dynamics in Hitler's day they would be like: "Well, you know, Stage Blue is important and the system needs change. Hitler's Red warrior energy is good for the boys. And did you see my new Volkswagen? I just love it. So anyway... let's just all be friends."

Edited Tuesday at 04:09 AM by Leo Gura

[Breathe]

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Their approach is to just go along for the ride and hope everything works out. Just kinda let Trump/MAGA just have their way.

All is well and good until your wife gets deported for having brown skin.