Ken Wilber says Trump is Stage Green?

[Nivsch]

9 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Where are the gut and emotions in Derrida?

Look on his political views.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Derrida

Under Politics section.

Edited Monday at 10:16 PM by Nivsch

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura Why else write a new book?

[Nivsch]

14 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

You’re underestimating what decades of sales and dealmaking do to your psyche. You get naturally conditioned to drop any notion of absolutes in all practical matters. You have to be totally fluid, ready to take any position necessary - whatever moves the deal forward.

Take it from someone working in this exact industry.

But don't you think it is just a skill like any other ability one can develop as swimming or be good at math? Sounds like Orange to me.

Edited Monday at 10:22 PM by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

44 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Beck and Cowan frame vMEMEs in the Dawkinsian sense - memes as cultural units of transmission. This doesn’t need further explication. The key point is that this is purely cultural, just one line of development, as Wilber would call it. And, as seen in Howard Gardner’s research on multiple intelligences, different lines can be totally decoupled from one another.

Wilber, on the other hand, isn’t just mapping cultural values - his model is a full cosmology. His stages are deep structures of consciousness that fundamentally alter how the subject - or spirit, to use Hegel’s term - experiences itself and reality. That means a subject can perceive reality in a relativist way while still being culturally underdeveloped, for lack of a better term.

There are plenty of examples. Woke religion is essentially a mythic-membership subject adopting the values of Stage Green. Or take Peter Thiel, who clearly operates from a systemic stage of development, yet channels it into a vile libertarian agenda.

I hope this makes it clearer. Again, this is all laid out quite explicitly in SES.

I see what you mean.

I think there is value in seeing it as memes and also as structures of consciousness.

The meme approach is nice in that it feels less linear and pre-desitined. With Wilber's stages they feel like this is the only way a human can evolve with no alternatives -- because this is how consciousness evolve. While memes feel like they could be different because there could be many different cultures and combinations of memes. So I actually feel Wilber's model is more linear and rigid.

Edited Monday at 10:27 PM by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Raze said:

That makes no sense, his entire philosophy was tearing apart stage blue and stage orange systems and philosophies and his prescribed replacement was a stage green fantasy. 

The stages clearly are more relevant to the structure of the persons psychology with the actual beliefs just being correlations 

I think your view is heavily skewed by today's Green position's retroactive view of Marx.

Back in Marx's era Green didn't even exist.

If you want an objective and factual analysis of this matter, just as your fave AI.

Our view of Marx today is colored through the Green lens. So Marx looks Green. Because Orange capitalism won the cultural battle over Marxism. So Marxism had to retreat to Green to stay alive.

Edited Monday at 10:26 PM by Leo Gura

[Nilsi]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Again, I would say it doesn't matter because Trump is just a scammer. Scammers are not relativists. They are just scammers. You give him too much credit. Relativism actually requires some intellectual work to see that people have validly differing perspectives. Trump does not give a fuck about any such work or anyone's perspective but his own. He doesn't even believe the perspective of his own Christian base. This is not PM. This is just fraud and criminal exploitation.

A psychopath can act like a kind loving man who wants to save the polar bears, just to fool a woman into loving him. This does not make a psychopath a PM relativist.

It's funny you say that because I literally typed relativist there but then edited it to pluralist.

I have not problem with calling PM relativism. But, relativism does not mean: any bullshit I can say goes. Relativism is about appreciating that other people have different points of view upon reality and that their POV should not be marginalized.

Relativism does not mean you get to invent bullshit. Relativism still requires things like intellectual honesty, truthfulness, presenting evidence, good faith, etc.

Steve Bannon's "flood the zone with shit" is NOT relativism. It's just information warfare.

I think you want the postmodern/relativist stage to look a certain way, aligned with a high level of moral development. But by Wilber’s own system, that’s not a given.

All the things you’re describing - feigning belief in Christianity, being a psychopathic seducer, flooding the zone with shit - require a high level of development. You’re taking that for granted.

Yes, violence, lying, and manipulation have existed since the dawn of man - they’re fundamental to survival. But even those follow a logic of development, growing more sophisticated over time.

A mythic-stage manipulator works within divine law - a Rasputin or Borgia Pope, leveraging religious legitimacy for power. A rational-stage seducer is a Casanova or Machiavelli, mastering deception as an art, no longer bound by religious constraints but still operating within a structured rational reality. A postmodern manipulator like Trump or Tate detaches from reality itself, flooding the zone with spectacle, simulation, and algorithmic seduction. A systemic-stage manipulator - a Peter Thiel or Henry Kissinger doesn’t just shape perception; they reshape entire systems, controlling the conditions under which manipulation even happens.

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I think you want the postmodern/relativist stage to look a certain way, aligned with a high level of moral development. But by Wilber’s own system, that’s not a given.

Yes, obviously I want it to look like Green, not something else. Green requires some level of empathy for other perspectives, like the perspectives of minorities and other cultures. Yes, this is a moral development. Not super high, but way above Trump or MAGA.

Quote

All the things you’re describing - feigning belief in Christianity, being a psychopathic seducer, flooding the zone with shit - require a high level of development. You’re taking that for granted.

What? No it doesn't. Any psychopath can do this instinctively with no training.

Quote

A postmodern manipulator like Trump or Tate detaches from reality itself, flooding the zone with spectacle, simulation, and algorithmic seduction.

Sorry, I just don't buy that theory of Trump or Tate. Sociopathy is being conflated with PM. A bad faith actor will use the tools his environment affords. We are in somewhat of a PM environment, but even that is debatable. I'd say that society is more modern than post-modern. The post-modernity of society and culture has been badly over-exaggerated. Most people believe in objective truth.

Edited Monday at 10:37 PM by Leo Gura

[The Crocodile]

5 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Rasputin

You could say he was an evil Turquoise psychopath.

[Nilsi]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I see what you mean.

I think there is value in seeing it as memes and also as structures of consciousness.

The meme approach is nice in that it feels less linear and pre-desitined. With Wilber's stages they feel like this is the only way a human can evolve with no alternatives -- because this is how consciousness evolve. While memes feel like they could be different because there could be many different cultures and combinations of memes. So I actually feel Wilber's model is more linear and rigid.

I agree that this is limiting, which is why I’m not a Wilberian - or a Hegelian, for that matter.

But that’s the problem with stage theories in general - they flatten complexity and non-linearity into some abstract, projected ideal. And the deeper you probe, the more absurd it gets.

I also agree that my position here on this Trump issue is absurd - I’m mostly playing devil’s advocate. But I think your position is just as absurd because, at the end of the day, these models are fundamentally absurd. I’m sorry. They work up to a point, but beyond that, they break down into paradox and nonsense.

Edited Monday at 10:40 PM by Nilsi

[Nivsch]

@Nilsi You then align development with IQ and technical genius and thats it?

[Nilsi]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Most people believe in objective truth.

Trump doesn't. 

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Trump doesn't. 

BECAUSE he is a con-artist! Not because he is a relativist.

[Leo Gura]

My father was a con-artist. I know exactly how they think. It's not stage Green.

Edited Monday at 10:53 PM by Leo Gura

[Elliott]

@Nilsi by your absurd view, would Alex Jones be green with regards to how he uses media? 

[Nilsi]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

BECAUSE he is a con-artist! Not because he is a relativist.

Lol.

I genuinely don’t see your point. Con-artistry requires a subjectivity that grasps relativism. This is Piaget’s post-formal mode of development, which Wilber himself correlates with Stage Green.

You’re acting like being a con artist doesn’t take intelligence. Most people aren’t con artists.

[Leo Gura]

Just now, Elliott said:

@Nilsi by your absurd view, would Alex Jones be green with regards to how he uses media? 

By his view, Alex Jones is a Turquoise ascendant master

[Elliott]

14 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Trump doesn't. 

How can you say that, do you not think he believes in his loudest grievances?

[Nilsi]

Just now, Elliott said:

@Nilsi by your absurd view, would Alex Jones be green with regards to how he uses media? 

It’s not my views that are absurd. I clearly despise Trump and Alex Jones.

It’s these models that are absurd. I can’t help but make these arguments in the context of this discussion.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

You’re acting like being a con artist doesn’t take intelligence. Most people aren’t con artists.

You just don't know what a con-artist is.

They are a special breed of animal.

Until you meet one, it's hard to even imagine such depraved people could exist.

Con-artistry has a lot of Red aspects.

Edited Monday at 11:00 PM by Leo Gura

[Nilsi]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

You just don't know what a con-artist is.

They are a special breed of animal.

I’m a salesman, lol. I could write a whole PhD-thesis on con-artistry.