Ken Wilber says Trump is Stage Green?

[Nivsch]

17 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Wilber’s archaic → magic → mythic → rational → postmodern/relativist → systemic → holistic

They are overlap quite well with SD stages. Seems similar to me.

Magic is purple parallel to the magical thinking of kids, mythic blue (red in between) then the following stages respectively.

Edited Monday at 09:32 PM by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

But he doesn’t just exploit it the way any influencer would. He actively plays into the simulation, eroding the very notion of truthful communication. It’s pure Baudrillard. That’s what people mean when they call Trump Green.

I don't understand why bullshitting and undermining truthful communication should be associated with PM. This is like a strawman notion of PM. Just because PM is pluralistic does not mean it's okay with bullshit from lairs and criminals.

15 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

But this is the problem with Spiral Dynamics. You can read it as a developmental model of values (vMEMES), like Beck and Cowan originally framed it, or as a deep evolutionary structure, like Wilber’s archaic → magic → mythic → rational → postmodern/relativist → systemic → holistic model. The latter is way more interesting because it allows for an immeasurable variety of assemblages, where values and structures mix in often unpredictable and counterintuitive ways.

I don't understand the difference you're pointing at. Could you spell it out more?

[Nilsi]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Red too can act as 'green' as a manipulation. The values are what matters.

That’s my point. A relativist can be just as driven by pure ego.

Foucault is another example - he used his deconstruction of truth to justify all sorts of atrocities, including raping children (young kids, his students at the time, btw) in Morocco. He even pushed to abolish age-of-consent laws in France, framing pedophilia as liberation.

That’s basically my take on Trump.

[Something Funny]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Wilber does not call Trump as Green. That's not what I said.

The problem I see in Wilber's application is that it blames Green, over estimates America's development, and acts like we can skip over Green to Yellow.

Wilber's work is excellent. His politics is not so great.

Ok, thank you for clarifying.

[Elliott]

Dementia appears as post modern.

 

Trump learned this from Cohn

 

 

Edited Monday at 09:36 PM by Elliott

[Ero]

That’s why I don’t respect philosophers. There’s nothing to ground them from pulling shit like this out their ass. Trump in his life hasn’t thought about anything more than himself. 

[Nivsch]

9 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Foucault is another example - he used his deconstruction of truth to justify all sorts of atrocities, including raping children (young kids, his students at the time, btw) in Morocco.

He uses relativism as a technique, not because he really understands the importance of relativism.

This is like journalists who examine multiperspectivism as part of their job. They are not Yellow, but only use this technique from a position of Orange mantality. 

A real multiperspectivism requires left and right brain synthesis hold within emphaty and psychological understanding.

Edited Monday at 09:43 PM by Nivsch

[Nilsi]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

I don't understand the difference you're pointing at. Could you spell it out more?

Beck and Cowan frame vMEMEs in the Dawkinsian sense - memes as cultural units of transmission. This doesn’t need further explication. The key point is that this is purely cultural, just one line of development, as Wilber would call it. And, as seen in Howard Gardner’s research on multiple intelligences, different lines can be totally decoupled from one another.

Wilber, on the other hand, isn’t just mapping cultural values - his model is a full cosmology. His stages are deep structures of consciousness that fundamentally alter how the subject - or spirit, to use Hegel’s term - experiences itself and reality. That means a subject can perceive reality in a relativist way while still being culturally underdeveloped, for lack of a better term.

There are plenty of examples. Woke religion is essentially a mythic-membership subject adopting the values of Stage Green. Or take Peter Thiel, who clearly operates from a systemic stage of development, yet channels it into a vile libertarian agenda.

I hope this makes it clearer. Again, this is all laid out quite explicitly in SES.

[Thought Art]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Wilber does not call Trump as Green. That's not what I said.

The problem I see in Wilber's application is that it blames Green, over estimates America's development, and acts like we can skip over Green to Yellow.

Wilber's work is excellent. His politics is not so great.

I thought when reading FindingRadical Wholeness he blamed green for the backlash or orange. 
 

He seemed to speak of green shadow which, is a problem. 

Edited Monday at 09:44 PM by Thought Art

[Nilsi]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

He uses relativism as a technique, not because he really understands the importance of relativism.

This is like journalists who examine multiperspectivism as part of their job. They are not Yellow, but only use this technique from a position of Orange mantality. 

A real multiperspectivism requires left and right brain synthesis hold within emphaty and psychological understanding.

So Foucault isn’t Stage Green then? That alone should make you scratch your head.

[Nivsch]

10 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

That’s my point. A relativist can be just as driven by pure ego.

If it is really pure then I really think this is done as a tool and not from genuine understanding.

[Nivsch]

1 minute ago, Nilsi said:

So Foucault isn’t Stage Green then? That alone should make you scratch your head.

I don't know him personally but I answered in general about the actions you said he did.

Edited Monday at 09:46 PM by Nivsch

[Nilsi]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't understand why bullshitting and undermining truthful communication should be associated with PM. This is like a strawman notion of PM. Just because PM is pluralistic does not mean it's okay with bullshit from lairs and criminals.

Because the way he does it demands a specific subjective experience and sensibility to these dynamics - which isn’t a given and is, again, what we would call the postmodern subject.

Also, I find it curious that you specifically use the word "pluralistic" to describe postmodernism when its lowest common denominator is clearly relativism.

Edited Monday at 09:55 PM by Nilsi

[The Crocodile]

17 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

That’s my point. A relativist can be just as driven by pure ego.

Foucault is another example - he used his deconstruction of truth to justify all sorts of atrocities, including raping children (young kids, his students at the time, btw) in Morocco. He even pushed to abolish age-of-consent laws in France, framing pedophilia as liberation.

That’s basically my take on Trump.

Foucault and Baudrillard have a type of cognition trump doesn't have, so trump could be acting according to a principle that's observable by postmodernists / poststructuralists, that doesn't mean he understands it. It's totally unconscious.

I don't know if Foucault is guilty. The claims have been disputed.

There's also William S. Burrough and Allen Ginsberg the American versions.

https://medium.com/the-awl/burroughs-and-ginsberg-literary-heroes-and-totally-gross-sex-predators-ed067a6ff5a5

[Nivsch]

10 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Because the way he does it demands a specific subjective experience and sensibility to these dynamics

This is only a 'left brain' ability, wereas a real Green acts from the gut and emotions mostly after he already exhausted classic technicality and analytical thinking.

Edited Monday at 10:04 PM by Nivsch

[Nilsi]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

This is only a 'left brain' ability, wereas a real Green acts from the gut and emotions mostly after he already exhausted classic technicality and analytical thinking.

I don’t even know what we’re arguing over anymore. I’ve made my position clear. Where are the gut and emotions in Derrida?

You’re conflating different lines of development - that’s my point.

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I thought when reading FindingRadical Wholeness he blamed green for the backlash or orange.

I have not read Radical Wholeness. So maybe his view has evolved.

[Nilsi]

6 minutes ago, The Crocodile said:

Foucault and Baudrillard have a type of cognition trump doesn't have, so trump could be acting according to a principle that's observable by postmodernists / poststructuralists, that doesn't mean he understands it. It's totally unconscious.

You’re underestimating what decades of sales and dealmaking do to your psyche. You get naturally conditioned to drop any notion of absolutes in all practical matters. You have to be totally fluid, ready to take any position necessary - whatever moves the deal forward.

Take it from someone working in this exact industry.

[Raze]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Marx is definitely Orange.

Today's Marxists are Green because Green and build on top of Orange.

Marx himself was racist, for example.

That makes no sense, his entire philosophy was tearing apart stage blue and stage orange systems and philosophies and his prescribed replacement was a stage green fantasy. 

The stages clearly are more relevant to the structure of the persons psychology with the actual beliefs just being correlations 

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Because the way he does it demands a specific subjective experience and sensibility to these dynamics - which isn’t a given and is, again, what we would call the postmodern subject.

Again, I would say it doesn't matter because Trump is just a scammer. Scammers are not relativists. They are just scammers. You give him too much credit. Relativism actually requires some intellectual work to see that people have validly differing perspectives. Trump does not give a fuck about any such work or anyone's perspective but his own. He doesn't even believe the perspective of his own Christian base. This is not PM. This is just fraud and criminal exploitation.

A psychopath can act like a kind loving man who wants to save the polar bears, just to fool a woman into loving him. This does not make a psychopath a PM relativist.

Quote

Also, I find it curious that you specifically use the word "pluralistic" to describe postmodernism when its lowest common denominator is clearly relativism.

It's funny you say that because I literally typed relativist there but then edited it to pluralist.

I have not problem with calling PM relativism. But, relativism does not mean: any bullshit I can say goes. Relativism is about appreciating that other people have different points of view upon reality and that their POV should not be marginalized.

Relativism does not mean you get to invent bullshit. Relativism still requires things like intellectual honesty, truthfulness, presenting evidence, good faith, etc.

Steve Bannon's "flood the zone with shit" is NOT relativism. It's just information warfare.

Edited Monday at 10:17 PM by Leo Gura