Ken Wilber says Trump is Stage Green?

[Leo Gura]

20 minutes ago, aurum said:

Do you have a source?

I've not seen that, but I'd like to look into it. 

I am looking for the source to post on my blog right now.

[Leo Gura]

32 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

From my personal experience, I believe that everyone is much lower on the spiral than what it appears to be at a first glance.

Yup. The devil loves to put lipstick on a pig.

[Nilsi]

@Leo Gura Again, I get Green Trump though. His agenda might be Orange, even Red - pure ego-driven recognition-seeking - but his media engagement? Unquestionably Green. It’s straight-up Baudrillard. Whether Trump is actually conscious of the theory behind it is irrelevant.

And this isn’t about demonizing Green - I love Green. But I think you’re applying it unevenly. Is Marx Green or Orange to you? You say Orange in your videos, but if I showed you an actual Marxist, you’d probably call them Green. So what are we actually talking about here - the structure or the content?

[Leo Gura]

38 minutes ago, aurum said:

Do you have a source?

I've not seen that, but I'd like to look into it. 

 

22 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Wtf? He’s like the most disgusting shade of blue imaginable.

Sorry. I am retracting my comments about Integral and JD Vance. I am unable to find the source I thought I remembered.

Disregard what I said about Vance. Unless maybe I am able to find a proper source.

[Nivsch]

21 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

but his media engagement? Unquestionably Green

Of Trump? How?

[Leo Gura]

35 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

@Leo Gura Again, I get Green Trump though. His agenda might be Orange, even Red - pure ego-driven recognition-seeking - but his media engagement? Unquestionably Green. It’s straight-up Baudrillard. Whether Trump is actually conscious of the theory behind it is irrelevant.

I think you're conflating things.

Green media is like TYT or David Pakman.

Trump is not Green in his media use. Trump just opportunistically exploits the media like suckers.

Trump's media use is toxic Orange and even Red. A Red psychopath would pollute the media with bullshit and use it to run a crypto grift or steal an election. This has nothing to do with post-modernism. Con-artists are NOT post-modernists. They are wolves who prey on post-modern sheep.

Even if the media is post-modern, Trump just exploits that environment. Like a crocodile in a kids swimming pool.

Quote

And this isn’t about demonizing Green - I love Green. But I think you’re applying it unevenly. Is Marx Green or Orange to you? You say Orange in your videos, but if I showed you an actual Marxist, you’d probably call them Green. So what are we actually talking about here - the structure or the content?

Marx is definitely Orange.

Today's Marxists are Green because Green can build on top of Orange.

Marx himself was racist, for example.

If you ask AI to analyze Marx along SD, it will say mostly Orange with bits of Green.

Edited Monday at 09:11 PM by Leo Gura

[Something Funny]

Is integral model somehow different from spiral dynamics?

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Is integral model somehow different from spiral dynamics?

Yes, in the highest stages.

Wilber introduces a lot mystical nondual stuff which Beck was against.

Edited Monday at 09:13 PM by Leo Gura

[Nilsi]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Even if the media is post-modern, Trump just exploits that environment. Like a crocodile in a kids swimming pool..

But he doesn’t just exploit it the way any influencer would. He actively plays into the simulation, eroding the very notion of truthful communication. It’s pure Baudrillard. That’s what people mean when they call Trump Green.

That his values aren’t Green is obvious to a deaf-blind man.

But this is the problem with Spiral Dynamics. You can read it as a developmental model of values (vMEMES), like Beck and Cowan originally framed it, or as a deep evolutionary structure, like Wilber’s archaic → magic → mythic → rational → postmodern/relativist → systemic → holistic model. The latter is way more interesting because it allows for an immeasurable variety of assemblages, where values and structures mix in often unpredictable and counterintuitive ways.

Take Marxists - if they’re real Marxists, they believe in historical materialism & dialectics, which is very Orange, while simultaneously holding Green values in other domains.

[ExploringReality]

@Something Funny

Integral models from ken are different from SP but includes and overlaps a lot of different developmental models into a single meta-model. 

It is true that ego wants to see itself as higher on a stage than it really is. I believe we all have  holes in our development as in Maslows hierarchy of needs which is only one model. But we all have different stages of the spiral within us that we have not integrated and transcended.

[Something Funny]

@Leo Gura do you like SD more or does integral have some useful insights / things that spiral dynamics miss?

Ken Wilber should be overall more conscious than Don Beck, right (I think you've mentioned Don Beck identifying himself as stage blue somewhere)? So he should understand higher stages better?

[UnbornTao]

Who's gonna call a lie stage X or Y?

[AION]

Integral model has 4 squadrons. In my opinion it is the best map of consciousness exciting today.

[ExploringReality]

It is very exciting reading ken wilbers materials , you get smarter as you learn. But remember the map is not the territory and the models are only sign post pointing towards something that the sign posts are not.

[Something Funny]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Wilber is wrong. The Integral community is wrong.

They misapply SD.

Trump is not post-truth, he's just a liar. Liars and frauds have exists since forever.

Wilber improperly applies SD because he has is own anti-Green bias from being rejected by academia. This bias warps his view of the America political situation.

Things like that would make me really doubt the quality of everything else that a person is saying / teaching, to be honest. Seems like a really gross mistake, almost a delusion, to call Trump stage green.

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@Leo Gura do you like SD more or does integral have some useful insights / things that spiral dynamics miss?

Ken Wilber should be overall more conscious than Don Beck, right (I think you've mentioned Don Beck identifying himself as stage blue somewhere)? So he should understand higher stages better?

Wliber has a better model because he has personal experience with the highest stages.

Beck was not developed enough himself to understand the higher stages.

[Nilsi]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Wliber has a better model because he has personal experience with the highest stages.

Beck was not developed enough himself to understand the higher stages.

Can we please discuss my previous statement?

Quote

But this is the problem with Spiral Dynamics. You can read it as a developmental model of values (vMEMES), like Beck and Cowan originally framed it, or as a deep evolutionary structure, like Wilber’s archaic → magic → mythic → rational → postmodern/relativist → systemic → holistic model. The latter is way more interesting because it allows for an immeasurable variety of assemblages, where values and structures mix in often unpredictable and counterintuitive ways.

I want to hear your take on this because I think they’re fundamentally different models.

[Something Funny]

@Leo Gura i see

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Things like that would make me really doubt the quality of everything else that a person is saying / teaching, to be honest. Seems like a really gross mistake, almost a delusion, to call Trump stage green.

Wilber does not call Trump as Green. That's not what I said.

The problem I see in Wilber's application is that it blames Green, over estimates America's development, and acts like we can skip over Green to Yellow.

Wilber's work is excellent. His politics is not so great.

Edited Monday at 09:29 PM by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

13 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

That his values aren’t Green is obvious to a deaf-blind man.

Red too can act as 'green' as a manipulation. The values are what matters.