A Newbie's Confusion

[Seeker_of_truth]

Whenever I meditate at some point in the meditation I try to experience nothingness. But what I repeatedly find is that I experience only the nothingness within my body outline. I've done a few self enquiries before and what I've found is that I can't locate myself within the body and I think I've almost no problem with the fact that I'm not my body or any kind of thing inside it. That nothingness that I feel when I try to experience nothingness, is it real or am I deluding myself after hearing Leo talk that I'm nothing ? 

Today while meditating I again tried to experience nothingness and then this thought occurred - "I right now only experience the nothingness inside me, then my goal is to somehow also experience the nothingness outside". So my second question is, am I aiming towards the right direction ?

Or am I thinking too much and should I just strictly stick with the technique of the meditation ?

[Leo Gura]

@Seeker_of_truth Notice that you cannot experience Nothingness. Because an experience, feeling, or perception, is Somethingness.

What you have is a subtle conceptualization of Nothingness -- some kind of image of it in your mind, or a feeling, or an intuition, etc -- which is actually Somethingness, not Nothingness.

Also, notice, how can Nothingness be inside you? It's nothing, so it cannot be limited to physical space. Why don't you assume it's everywhere?

All that said, what you're doing (trying desperately to grasp at Nothingness using the mind) isn't wrong per se. It's the essence of self-inquiry. I just want you to know ahead of time that it will never work. Mind (somethingness) cannot grasp Nothingness, ever! Because somethingness is not nothingness. You cannot think Nothingness. You cannot feel Nothingness. You cannot conceptualize Nothingness. You cannot intuit Nothingness. Because it's not a thing.

Now you might wonder, "So should I stop?"

That's tricky. This is the process of self-inquiry. You're being asked to do the impossible. It takes hundreds of hours of wrestling with this problem until your mind starts to learn why it can't grasp Nothingness, and then eventually your mind starts to shut up, and actual Nothingness might dawn.

Whatever you presently imagine Nothingness to be, it is surely NOT that!

I suggest you keep looking into this matter. Keep wrestling with it. You need to grasp what I'm saying here at a bones-deep level. It's not enough to theoretically know it. You need to experience the futility of the mind for yourself. And the only way to do that is by spinning your wheels a lot in this process. Have patience.

[cetus]

@Seeker_of_truth Yea that is a bit of a wrong approach to take. I made the same mistake for a time than just by chance of it's own doing something happened one day. But it's not going to happen purposely trying so that you can experience it for yourself. It doesn't work that way. You have to completely dissolve what is you first. Than what remains is nothingness. Which is nothing. But an amazing nothing. Never "try". That is too much "you". Too much effort. Too much desire. Too much ego. It only happens when you let go of everything. That's the key. But purposely trying to let go of everything, doesn't work either. Haha "You" have to become nothingness itself. No content. No desire.

[AlldayLoop]

So is it like trying to find a needle in a haystack, but you are the needle and everything else is also the needle? Yet you think that the needle is somewhere else?

[Leo Gura]

@AlldayLoop More like, there is no needle. Which is why it's so hard to find!

How can you find something which is nothing? And who is the one doing the finding?!!

[Seeker_of_truth]

Thanks a lot. 

[Ayla]

On 5/11/2017 at 8:48 PM, Seeker_of_truth said:

Whenever I meditate ................ I try to experience

You are not meditating. You are wasting your time wandering. Either you want to meditate - which is not doing anything basically, or you think about stuff that interests you and come up with whatever ideas you may come up with. Nothing wrong with any of that. Meditation is good for you. So is thinking. But you do need to decide where you're heading. As long as you are not clear in your mind, you will be going in circles... Most of this work is about becoming very clear. VERY clear. 

 

[pluto]

"try"

Remove that word from your existence.

Meditation does not work that way.

"Surrender" is the word you are looking for

You find all by losing and letting go of all

Peace

[LifeandDeath]

 @Seeker_of_truth another way of looking at it is we have our 'being' where our 'conceptual mind' manifests from. Our 'being' is us in our absolute existence which is interconnected with everything at the same time and we cannot experience because all we have is our conceptual mind. But when we come to terms that we realise we can't experience it, our mind relaxes and we surrender to this fact. Our mind becomes so quiet that it breaks it's conditioned reactions and ideas that it has about itself. The experience of this is different between everyone and the insights are personal to everyone. It's escaping any conceptual reasoning that makes this most liberating and freeing as we are not falsely identified with our mental phenomena but come to an understanding that we are more. This is deeply peaceful. 

Others, feel free to correct, add or provide your opinion as this is a very nuanced practice. 

Enjoy!! 

[Bastian]

On 5/11/2017 at 9:10 PM, Leo Gura said:

@Seeker_of_truth Notice that you cannot experience Nothingness. Because an experience, feeling, or perception, is Somethingness.

What you have is a subtle conceptualization of Nothingness -- some kind of image of it in your mind, or a feeling, or an intuition, etc -- which is actually Somethingness, not Nothingness.

Also, notice, how can Nothingness be inside you? It's nothing, so it cannot be limited to physical space. Why don't you assume it's everywhere?

All that said, what you're doing (trying desperately to grasp at Nothingness using the mind) isn't wrong per se. It's the essence of self-inquiry. I just want you to know ahead of time that it will never work. Mind (somethingness) cannot grasp Nothingness, ever! Because somethingness is not nothingness. You cannot think Nothingness. You cannot feel Nothingness. You cannot conceptualize Nothingness. You cannot intuit Nothingness. Because it's not a thing.

Now you might wonder, "So should I stop?"

That's tricky. This is the process of self-inquiry. You're being asked to do the impossible. It takes hundreds of hours of wrestling with this problem until your mind starts to learn why it can't grasp Nothingness, and then eventually your mind starts to shut up, and actual Nothingness might dawn.

Whatever you presently imagine Nothingness to be, it is surely NOT that!

I suggest you keep looking into this matter. Keep wrestling with it. You need to grasp what I'm saying here at a bones-deep level. It's not enough to theoretically know it. You need to experience the futility of the mind for yourself. And the only way to do that is by spinning your wheels a lot in this process. Have patience.

I've never got this point, maybe you can help me! I get how nothingness can be known in its pure form. Rupert Spira put it like this: "it’s the sinking and sinking and sinking and sinking of the attention into its source and as the attention sinks into its source, it is, gradually in most cases, very occasionally suddenly, but gradually in most cases, divested of all the limitations that thought and feeling have superimposed on it and at some point it stands completely undressed. And attention undressed, attention divested of all limitations is pure consciousness". I've already had a taste of the process Spira is describing when I did your guided letting go meditation. So I get that if I let go of everything (and yes I know that I, the person, can't let go because I don't exist) pure awareness will remain. What I've never understood is how it's possible to be aware of nothingness merged with content! I've heard Shinzen Young and Rali say that it's like an intuitive knowing, but this doesn't really mean anything. Could you please help me understand?

[Seeker_of_truth]

14 hours ago, Ayla said:

You are not meditating. You are wasting your time wandering. Either you want to meditate - which is not doing anything basically, or you think about stuff that interests you and come up with whatever ideas you may come up with. Nothing wrong with any of that. Meditation is good for you. So is thinking. But you do need to decide where you're heading. As long as you are not clear in your mind, you will be going in circles... Most of this work is about becoming very clear. VERY clear. 

 

I don't think the meditation (the appropriate word for the practice that I do is kriya) that I do involves doing nothing. Its a 3 part technique and in the first part of it I'm supposed to have a mild focus between the eyebrows while taking in the thought "I'm not the body" with inhalation and "I'm not even the mind" with exhalation. So when I take in those thoughts, at some point I try to feel into it and try to experience something beyond the mind and the body but it seems everytime I try I can't experience anything beyond the mind. So I think this is what Leo said that I need to repeatedly fail in this attempt so that my mind finally gives up.

Maybe this isn't what you call meditation but I thought I'll try this out. I'm just starting to get into a routine, before that I was just doing meditation whenever I feel to. I actually put this kriya in the routine before my planned date. Maybe on the planned date I'll add a normal meditation probably the do nothing technique.

Besides this, I also recently started doing something called the Stop technique in which suddenly during the middle of the day I suddenly stop doing everything (even breathing) for a moment. When suddenly I stop it said that the mind also stops for a moment and I try to notice it. Again here I noticed that feeling of nothingness within my body.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Seeker_of_truth

[Ayla]

@Seeker_of_truth Yes, I know Sadhguru's technique...