What are psychedelics from the metaphysical perspective?

[The Crocodile]

3 hours ago, yetineti said:

@The Crocodile

You do not comprehend how necessary it is that you are human right now.

Or that when you take these chemicals you cease to be human at all.

Nope, you are not a human right now, and then "becoming not-human" on psychedelics. You are patently deluded. You do not comprehend that then everything is necessary and therefore nullifying your argument.

The reason the experience ends is not because it is impossible to imagine a state of reality where God-Consciousness lasts longer, it's because you couldn't do it if your mother's life depended on it and you could only get it from a drug, which is temporary in effect. The reason it's temporary in effect is because you take a drug, the drug comes from the receptor and gets dissolved, and you piss it out of your system.

Just because an experience is strong doesn't make your deluded interpretation of it correct.

The reason the experience ends is because it's a drug.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, The Crocodile said:

The reason the experience ends is because it's a drug.

That isn't the question.

The point is that drugs are imaginary.

[The Crocodile]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

The point is that drugs are imaginary.

It might do you well to try to strawman your awakenings and debunk them and steelman other perspectives. Because I remember in preschool after having seen a galaxy puzzle gazing off into my daydream of a black void, trying to figure out what there is when you go back in time, why that exists, why that exists, why that exists, the insanity that anything exists at all.

It turns out the explanation is the existence of the Absolute, and Absolute Infinity, and you can have awakenings of what your consciousness can do, but then trying to strawman them by contextualizing them in the context of scientific materialism or Tom Campbell can have interesting effects. Like the eternity experience is not eternity, it's just a "virtual reality" with a much slower or much faster speed being fed through the computer to create the illusion for the dumb human consciousness that reality has an infinite explanation, when such explanation was never necessary and finite explanation may be all that is necessary. There's the problem with stuff like scientific materialism where it turns reality into parts or a system, and then uses parts or a system to explain the parts or a system without explaining why that stuff exists. Same with Tom Campbell. The absolute nature of reality can appear to fit itself down into the perception of these systems. Reality is able to infinitely run away from itself, and create finitude and debunk the existence of infinity, AND REALLY DO IT, if it's going to properly have the power of infinity. But then the causality or acausality of that can get confusing. From what we've previously known, the moment ten years ago and the moment now should be able to interact or have some connection by infinity or a nothingness that is in both of them, BUT that nothingness may just be another limited thing with Absolutely no relation to the previous moment. Previous understanding is that when you realize nothingness you are just discovering something that was true the whole time, and YET it can be absolutely conceived that ACTUALLY the finite perception was true and required no nothingness. Paradoxes like this.

It's not just drugs that cause a temporary infinite increase of consciousness we can't explain though. We can't explain the causality of anything really. After living in the physical world for a long time there's an illusion that you understand why things and objects have motion and color the way they do in the environment the way they do, but this is mostly just pattern recognition of a process we aren't controlling or understanding, since the stream of sensations seems to be fed to us.

Like feel like we "know" why we see water when we look at an ocean, but it's just pattern recognition of a complex process of the pixels of color and frames per second of shapes one moment then motioning over to another where we don't directly control or grasp the whole mechanics of this, and why putting your fingers in the water generates a different field of tactile sensations that correlates with a complex nervous system in the fingers is lost on us even as though we may have a scientific understanding of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom forming water, we don't know why that process has an appearance of being water as we know it in our visual field with the quality of "blueness". Or if atoms always existed and were discovered or were "invented" by the universe to explain what happens when you look that small. Are abstractions real and infinitely connected to all parts of reality on a continuum, or are they evolutionarily generated/imagined as subtle structures by the mind disconnected from the past that existed before?

If your question of the drug is a relative question, it's difficult like all relative questions of any scale seem to be. If it's an absolute question you're just asking why anything exists at all, which is a question that can merge with the relative of why any relative system exists at all inasmuch as it is part of the absolute.

But then water for instance is not merely so much oxygen and hydrogen put together---the combination is simply a backstory for enabling the sight of a new thing called water and what that new thing really is is quite another matter, to what degree that it exists as a single line independent of other relative systems or is infinitely caused by infinite finite systems or finite infinite systems. It's a mystery of perception or a not-mystery if we allow the finite room to exist and just say that's how it is.

From a sort of absolute perspective everything will happen and in reality systems far more bizarre than this human pattern one, so yeah, being in a normal ordinary human state, smoking a drug one day, and then having a literally infinite increase in consciousness---it's statistically unlikely to happen, like infinitely unlikely, but this is accounted for by the absolute, by the relative it does suggest some kind of relative intelligent design. Fine tuning argument.

But from the perspective of infinite relativity being real there are infinite relative causalities at all levels flowing/streaming into the circumstances of the drug experience, infinite planes of existence. When you see water that's just the infinite water plane connecting to the infinite awareness you are. When you go to the 5-MeO space that's a plane that has a connection to this one.

OR, Tom Campbell is right, in which case drug experiences are just a data feed. Like Mario eating a mushroom.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, The Crocodile said:

OR, Tom Campbell is right

He is not right.

Infinity is not to be trivialized and explained away by silly computer analogies.

Your stuff about the ocean is good.

Edited Saturday at 07:01 AM by Leo Gura

[Salvijus]

Normally your energies are anchored and rooted in the physical body very firmly. This anchoring doesn't allow your spirit to roam about much. When you ingest a psychedelic, you're ingesting some amount of poison in your body. This toxic substance makes your body inhospitable for a certain amount of time and the anchored energies get released and your spirit is able to fly to subtler realms of conciousness. Shamans use alcohol in same way to dislodge the spirit from the body so that the body would be more suseptible to spirit possessions for example. This method will have consequences on your body and mind eventually. Sometimes portions of that released energy fail to come back to the body and people experience dissociation, disorientation, ungroundedness, mental derailment, loss of will power to do anything. Shamans call it a lost soul phenomena and have soul retrieval ways of bringing that energy back into the body. 

Edited Saturday at 09:01 AM by Salvijus

[The Crocodile]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

He is not right.

He seems to be very wrong.

Absolute Infinity could include finitude. It seems to be more fundamental than even nothingness. And you can conceive of a substance you wouldn't be able to pattern-recognize as either nothingness or somethingness, it would be "something else". And you could imagine infinite of these substances and different combinations and interactions or equivalents of interactions.

But like, maybe Undefinable Nameless Unnameable is a better term?

[The Crocodile]

@Leo Gura This might interest you. It's how you might think of it from a paranormal perspective from people who are approaching it from that angle.

Daniel Lawton: One has to value perception above finding your next meal. I don't believe the average person would like to hear the nature of "the definitive journey". Which we were created to take. It's just not "cozy" at all, or at least I suspect that. We aren't warned ahead of time that we'll have to give up cozy forever, because in fact cozy is an illusion. And there are much better things than that. They just outside the range of our perceptual prison.

Me: 

The censor I have isn't so much the idea that the sensations can't be perceived, it's that they're less valuable compared to something "denser".

What I mean is if you look at a blank white wall in the first attention, it seems to be made of matter and harder and more vivid. That's a sensation.

Whereas the sensation of the second attention much of the time might be brighter than the first attention, but it seems to be less solid. It might be more complex, it might feel better, but it might still have less "density" which leads to the idea that con artists like Osho might have a point, because they prefer the higher-density thing that everybody already sees anyway. They're stupid, but might accidentally be right about reality if it turns out density of sensation is more valuable than feeling good or having actual knowledge of consciousness.

Yet again the second attention in the darkness has a "density" that allows it to be seen in the dark, it's denser than the physical first attention darkness and so overpowers it, or at least that's a view I've been able to see from.

And I also have a problem with infinity vs. finite, it's not conceptual but like a real thing. Because I can overcome certain relationships that are taken for granted with space and time but the "realness" is always doubted.

Like if I go in a twisting formation that seems to go backwards or forwards in time, that doesn't necessarily show infinity, it shows finite stuff running at different speeds, which causes doubt about the whole nature of reality.

But you've said it's silent knowledge, NOT silent truth, but you're saying that's true!

Daniel Lawton:

You can definitely rewind time in the red zone.

Even swipe what you are looking like with your finger like it was a cellphone video.

Unfortunately, that's a "deep red zone" activity.

Me:

I know, but there's a difference between changing a view of time and then 'actually' time traveling. Like if you have a bunch of particles moving, some of them are faster than others, one of them might be so slow it remains in the past version of the environment so now the environment has multiplied. That could be a gray area..

And infinity is the concern I have with Mr. Doubletake, saying that much of it is delusion. Obviously space as most people think of it is totally not fundamental, because of how awareness can move through objects of different sizes according to direction, like the energy changing shape and size to fit the torso or the thin line of the arm or the distant watery floor you can stretch your thin line of the arm to yet remaining the same awareness and energy. All of the sensations are passing through the same point.

Somehow that would imply infinity, but I don't know how to reconcile that between something that happened decades or thousands of years ago with right now. Obviously you can get recordings or echoes, but thousands of years ago as it actually is happening or 'actual' time travel I'm curious what limitations there would be to that and why.

And I understand some of this sounds like it's written at the request of The Censor.

Daniel Lawton:

You're trying to fit time travel into the causality of this blue line reality.

It's a circular argument you're making here.

Saying that if you violate the known rules here, then it's not "real".

So the arguments seem reasonable. But only based on your assumption that this place is the only valid one.

Why? What makes it more valid than another?

The fact that you're hopelessly stuck here?

I was thinking about Dr. Strange's magic last night, while looking at special effects floating around me, which blow away what he can do in his movies.

It was very clear, the magic I was practicing was far better than his.

EXCEPT, he has the ability to force others to live with the results.

He can override other people's "votes" for what they are perceiving.

It does seem as if our sorcery line can do that when they've been raised in a lineage, for a very long time.

And certainly teleporting from Mexico to Los Angeles the way Carlos did when he jumped off the cliff is hard to explain.

But so is Cholita actually floating little dim sum plates. Or lifting me into the air with one finger.

So in some ways, the argument you're making is that the magic isn't "good enough" unless it can force others to deal with it.

And if it's just you exploring magic for fun, it's "unreal".

Isn't that the merchant mind?

Me:

No, I don't care about making money or society. I'll do it for fun anyway for the rest of my life and plan on helping myself through that, but before there's a nagging that wants me to have a certain comprehension of reality. My fun short-term goal is I want the puffs to be big and bright enough to make me happy for the rest of my life in all lighting conditions with eyes totally open, and to explore everynight, and I'll probably become deity-like.

The merchant mind and the censor are not the same for me. The censor is censoring things or distracting me from what I really want to do.

An example of a censorship I'm talking about is I'll be watching a TV show in a foreign language made 20 years ago, seeing my energy body on the heads of the people on a bus in the show (I can also put my room or after imprints of my physical body and space inside the show), then it shifts to the space of a whole tiny person because the camera changed, and my energy body is vibrating inside a field they're passing by. THAT'S the reason I'd be concerned if my view of that was invented then, or whether I was just discovering something on an infinite "plane" which is in the same reality and therefore possibly interactive with the show as it was actually made 20 years ago. The only reason to think of the blue line reality is its relation to the rest of reality, and thinking so if there is one frame of time and one frame of time is it always possible to discover/invent a higher plane to affect the other frame, or is some stuff such as the blue line past just totally closed off (because of how it was created). but I'd be satisfied with infinite potential copies that are located in the future.

If you have an answer that engages with what I said that's fine, if you think it's just stupid and I should stop that's fine too.

Daniel Lawton:

I've interacted with TV shows also, but the TV wasn't actually on.

I was watching a TV that was off. With a "re-run" that likely never aired.

It took an Ally to do that.

I got to thinking about whether time travel is "real" or not.

You can't change the past by that method. All you get to do is participate in it, the way the original person did, or you can watch from the side, and can't alter events.

I've been frustrated to relive one of the people from the books, and not be able to look up and see people's faces. Because the original person didn't.

Though you can walk around anywhere you like in the past near that event, if you aren't reliving someone else.

It's so realistic, and you find so many things you forgot about, it's hard to dismiss it as "not real".

But then there's "jumping grooves". Where you can heal a fatal illness.

You alter your own timeline.

But such things are very advanced.

We have to satisfy with puffs and such. For now.

[CoolDreamThanks]

Andrew Tate says all problems would be solved if women had their body count on their forehead.  
 

I’d much rather see the level of consciousness on peoples foreheads, that would solve all of the problems on this forum and globally. 
 

Although the higher you are the easier it is to see who is at which level. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

you're ingesting some amount of poison in your body. This toxic substance

Where you do make this stuff up?

Psychedelic is not a poison. It is a variety of serotonin.

Edited Saturday at 09:38 AM by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

52 minutes ago, The Crocodile said:

He seems to be very wrong.

Absolute Infinity could include finitude. It seems to be more fundamental than even nothingness. And you can conceive of a substance you wouldn't be able to pattern-recognize as either nothingness or somethingness, it would be "something else". And you could imagine infinite of these substances and different combinations and interactions or equivalents of interactions.

But like, maybe Undefinable Nameless Unnameable is a better term?

All of that is Infinity.

Infinity is EVERYTHING at once.

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Psychedelic is not a poison

It is inhibiting one way or the other, be it neauro toxics or some other inhibitors. Mostly it is poisonous mushrooms, poisonous plants, poisonous animal venom: snakes, scorpions, toads that are used. Mad honey is poisonous aswell. There could be some exceptions.  But psychedelics usually have a shutting down effect on the body and certain parts of your brain. That's why too big a dose and you may not come back. Or it will disconnect you from the body in some way. The shutting down of body temporarily is what allows the energies which would otherwise be anchored to your body to roam into higher realms. 

Edited Saturday at 10:51 AM by Salvijus

[Davidess]

Every medicine becomes a poison when you reach a certain dose.

[Salvijus]

Psychedelics are a little bit like NDE. That itself shows that your body is in some sort of temporary state of dying/shutting down when you're taking psychedelics. 

Edited Saturday at 10:38 AM by Salvijus

[Davidess]

3 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

That itself shows that your body is in some sort of state of dying when you're taking psychedelics. 

Not necessarily. I experienced ego death while meditating (sober) and my body was perfectly fine. I think that the mind may be in the state of dying (changing form to less dense vibration), but the body is not dying on normal doses. However I feel like there much more to explore in this topic.

Of course, you may call it "unnatural" (= a xenobiotic), meaning it is not naturally produced in your body (as far as I know) and your body wants to get "rid of it". But so does body with every medicine you intake.

[Salvijus]

48 minutes ago, Davidess said:

Not necessarily. I experienced ego death while meditating (sober) and my body was perfectly fine

Why do you think when yogis or buddhist monks enter a samadhi state, their heart beat and breath stops or they will go into some kind of suspended animation? Shutting down of the body = roaming the highest plane of existence. There are natural ways to do it. And there are ways to do it through external means. But external means will be damaging to the body and the results won't last. 

Edited Saturday at 11:23 AM by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, CoolDreamThanks said:

I’d much rather see the level of consciousness on peoples foreheads, that would solve all of the problems on this forum and globally. 

"the ability to observe without evaluating is the highest form of intelligence" ~ J. Krishnamurti 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

It is inhibiting one way or the other, be it neauro toxics or some other inhibitors.

No

[CoolDreamThanks]

@Salvijus your mind has an uncanny ability to be wrong and believe it is right. It’s spectacular to see. You deserve some sort of a medal. 

[Salvijus]

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No

Let me rephrase it like this. "it disconnects, dissociates, shuts down, inhibits the body in one way or the other" 

 

Edited Saturday at 11:45 AM by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

10 minutes ago, CoolDreamThanks said:

@Salvijus your mind has an uncanny ability to be wrong and believe it is right. It’s spectacular to see. You deserve some sort of a medal. 

Thank you for your valuable input

Edited Saturday at 11:44 AM by Salvijus