Religious pork bans

[Ross]

The Jewish and Islamic doctrine on the prohibition of pork is quite a tough nut to crack. Clearly nowadays we know that pork consumption has very little harm to humans when cooked properly, however many followers of those faiths still vehemently oppose pork. Also, the harm argument is a good point, but then they bring counter arguments that eating cats, dogs and rats may not be damaging to humans, but they are still shameful to eat. How do people beat this dogma? 

[Yimpa]

Are they allowed to eat vegan pork, or is that also banned?

[Basman]

It is just religious dogma. It could be anything else and the result would be the same. It is irrelevant if it's true or not.

Eating pig in the middle-east was maybe toxic at one point in history but that is no longer case or has been the case in other places or before these religious texts where written. That is a bit of the problem with religion is that they tend to be contemporary political works. Like the bible has plenty of passages complaining about the Romans. It's been theorized that 666 is a metaphor for Emperor Nero (since he persecuted a lot of Christians).

When a religion is overtly political it instantly dates it to a specific time and culture. It becomes less spiritual and more about power structures and hierarchy.

Edited Friday at 01:55 PM by Basman

[Basman]

18 hours ago, Ross said:

How do people beat this dogma? 

Most people aren't interested in questioning their dogma. It would mean giving up their religious community. I've spoken to a couple of Christians who where unsure of their faith which caused them to despair. They where to deep in to seriously consider leaving Christianity though. Their whole life was built around it, including all their friends, family and status.

I believe that people who do give up their religion tend too have suffered under it too much and/or value what is true too much.

Edited Friday at 01:56 PM by Basman

[Hojo]

@Ross Its not about the harm the meat does its that they are almost human. 

Edited Friday at 01:44 PM by Hojo

[Schizophonia]

Yes, it is an obsolete prescription.

[Frylock]

Just like circumcision, it's an antiquated, vestigial social practice that is not relevant to the modern age.

[Nilsi]

Why overanalyze? It’s a tradition. Who cares?

I’ve grown really appreciative of tradition over the years, especially since most of my friends are Muslim. Sure, a lot of it isn’t strictly rational - but that’s the nature of it. It’s not about epistemological rigor; it’s about lived experience, meaning, and continuity.

And honestly, who gives a fuck about rationality when so much of what the modern secular world is missing - especially a strong sense of community - is still alive in these traditions?

My friends have invited me to iftar a couple of times this Ramadan, and it’s just beautiful: people coming together over food, conversation, and worship. What more could you ask from tradition?

Edited Friday at 06:31 PM by Nilsi

[Basman]

3 hours ago, Nilsi said:

Why overanalyze? It’s a tradition. Who cares?

I’ve grown really appreciative of tradition over the years, especially since most of my friends are Muslim. Sure, a lot of it isn’t strictly rational - but that’s the nature of it. It’s not about epistemological rigor; it’s about lived experience, meaning, and continuity.

And honestly, who gives a fuck about rationality when so much of what the modern secular world is missing - especially a strong sense of community - is still alive in these traditions?

My friends have invited me to iftar a couple of times this Ramadan, and it’s just beautiful: people coming together over food, conversation, and worship. What more could you ask from tradition?

The problem is that it's bullshit. For you it is simply a matter of suspending your disbelief and enjoying the social fruits. Someone who's indoctrinated into religion is essentially a slave. They can never step outside of the mental confines of their dogma without serious suffering and losing their community. They are cursed from childhood.

[The Renaissance Man]

On 3/13/2025 at 8:38 PM, Ross said:

cats, dogs and rats may not be damaging to humans, but they are still shameful to eat.

Why would eating cats, dogs and rats be worse than eating pork? Is eating a dog shameful but a pig not?

[Nilsi]

18 minutes ago, Basman said:

The problem is that it's bullshit. For you it is simply a matter of suspending your disbelief and enjoying the social fruits. Someone who's indoctrinated into religion is essentially a slave. They can never step outside of the mental confines of their dogma without serious suffering and losing their community. They are cursed from childhood.

My point is that, when all is said and done, living a traditional life isn’t as bad a deal as the secular world makes it out to be.

[gambler]

44 minutes ago, The Renaissance Man said:

Why would eating cats, dogs and rats be worse than eating pork? Is eating a dog shameful but a pig not?

From the Islamic point of view, these are all in the same category of being impermissible to eat. There is nothing special about pork. The only reason why westerners make a big deal out of Muslims not eating pork as opposed to a dog, is because they themselves eat pig.

Honestly, I think it has to do with preserving the perception of the religious community. In our world, based on mental heuristics, it's easier to mock or laugh at a group of people who eat animals that others find strange like cats, dogs, monkeys, pigs, rats, or whatever. Just look at how West Africans were mocked when Ebola broke out, and people learned they eat bush meat, or how East Asian cultures are mocked for consuming horses, grasshoppers, or cats.

If Judaism had remained the only group that permitted eating pigs, they would likely have been mocked for it by the rest of the world. There may have been an awareness of how future perception of swine-consumption could evolve. If they didn't prohibit pork, it could have been a poor judgment call. After all, it wasn't obvious that swine consumption would continue to be widely accepted. Religion strives for superior optics, even if you believe these things are just baked in dogma.

A civilization that collectively refrained from eating these animals would likely feel more secure, as this aligns with mental heuristics. If religion's goal is to uphold the moral fabric of its society, it would want its followers to feel secure in their beliefs—secure enough to remain committed to the faith and to defending its moral order. In Islam's case, aligning with the Old Testament prohibition reinforced that sense of security. If it had diverged, it could have created unnecessary tension. 

Edited Friday at 11:07 PM by gambler

[Basman]

2 hours ago, Nilsi said:

My point is that, when all is said and done, living a traditional life isn’t as bad a deal as the secular world makes it out to be.

I don't know. I don't like being harshly judged for eating pork or having per-marital sex.

Edited Saturday at 12:24 AM by Basman

[Twentyfirst]

2 hours ago, Basman said:

I don't know. I don't like being harshly judged for eating pork or having per-marital sex.

I don't think Islam teaches to judge harshly. I think most "sins" you actually have to cover up for the other person and help them hide it from others. If you have been judged maybe it's just Muslims speaking out of place

[Leo Gura]

The path to God is exclusively on a diet of squirrel meat.

[gambler]

31 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The path to God is exclusively on a diet of squirrel meat.

Leave the poor squirrels alone, they’re just by their lonesome looking for a nut. 

[Basman]

10 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

I don't think Islam teaches to judge harshly. I think most "sins" you actually have to cover up for the other person and help them hide it from others. If you have been judged maybe it's just Muslims speaking out of place

In order to be part of a religious community you have to conform. That is the point of religion. If a Muslim doesn't judge you openly because it goes against scripture then that is just another form of community. The religious will always judge people for not being religious enough including themselves in my experience.

[Twentyfirst]

8 hours ago, Basman said:

In order to be part of a religious community you have to conform. That is the point of religion. If a Muslim doesn't judge you openly because it goes against scripture then that is just another form of community. The religious will always judge people for not being religious enough including themselves in my experience.

Maybe. I haven't personally experienced that too much but if that's all you have ever experienced then I see where you would be coming from. For me most times they could just "judge" in a loving way without tearing themselves or anyone else down and simply finding the error and putting them back on the right track knowing that part of being a human is making mistakes 

Why is comforming bad if we are social tribal creatures that desperately want community and without it we start to have psychological issues. The only issue is if you are conforming to something wrong. 

I don't see why anyone would judge you for eating pork or having sex before marriage if you aren't religious yourself. But if you say you are religious but then don't follow the religion you are opening yourself to criticism 

[Basman]

27 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Maybe. I haven't personally experienced that too much but if that's all you have ever experienced then I see where you would be coming from. For me most times they could just "judge" in a loving way without tearing themselves or anyone else down and simply finding the error and putting them back on the right track knowing that part of being a human is making mistakes 

Why is comforming bad if we are social tribal creatures that desperately want community and without it we start to have psychological issues. The only issue is if you are conforming to something wrong. 

I don't see why anyone would judge you for eating pork or having sex before marriage if you aren't religious yourself. But if you say you are religious but then don't follow the religion you are opening yourself to criticism 

Conforming isn't inherently bad but you have to recognize when it is to a purely ideological and dysfunctional extent. Not eating pork isn't going to make you any more happier because religion isn't about making you happy. The vast majority of people are religious only because they where indoctrinated from birth. Conformity is purely a matter of life and death to them, not spirituality or happiness.

[Twentyfirst]

2 hours ago, Basman said:

Conforming isn't inherently bad but you have to recognize when it is to a purely ideological and dysfunctional extent. Not eating pork isn't going to make you any more happier because religion isn't about making you happy. 

If not eating pork is obeying and worshipping your god then by extension obeying and worshipping your god will make you happy. Any human will happy when they please their parents or anything they perceive higher than them. Maybe in the future there will be science to prove that eating pork is unhealthy. But diet is a tough one because even online you can see everything from fruitatarian to carnivore and everyone swears by their diet with proof and claims. Diet may be one of those endless debates. Maybe it was a regional thing where pigs from that region were unhealthy. Kind of like how the USA has worse food than say Europe so you would tell someone in USA to stay away from supermarkets and go to organic farms but in Europe you wouldn't give that same advice. Other things like having pre marital sex have definitely been proven by science and societal trends to be unskilled ways of doing things (STDs, abortions, single mothers, heartbreak, abuse, drama, waste of time, unsatisfactory) so religions are correct about that

 

2 hours ago, Basman said:

The vast majority of people are religious only because they where indoctrinated from birth. Conformity is purely a matter of life and death to them, not spirituality or happiness.

By this logic everything is indoctrinated to us from birth. Even wearing clothes. So if religion is good then you would be happy to not have missed out on that school of indoctrination. If it's bad then it would have been a crutch that you want to escape from. Most people are happy with their religions and the ones that aren't will escape but there have always been people escaping just now it's less hassle if you do escape. I don't think people want to leave because there is no replacement not because it's a matter of life and death. Religious people don't really feel a need to question everything in their religion and if they do the religion will just tell them to trust that god has higher wisdom than you and they do trust so there isn't any tug of war