Top Proofs For The Existence Of God

[Leo Gura]

 

[Sempiternity]

Looking forward to diving into this! Seems like years since you've done work on the subject of God. 

[Ero]

Playing this as a break after 10 hours of actual math proofs lol

[AtmanIsBrahman]

It's a good episode so far. Similar insight to what I've had about the cosmological argument: the infinite chain of causation is God. It's amazing how every philosopher/theologian misses this.

[Willie]

Aside from the fact that anything exists at all?

[Nivsch]

 

Edited yesterday at 11:41 AM by Nivsch

[Davino]

@Nivsch Ou yes, spread the gospel brother!

[AtmanIsBrahman]

@Leo Gura you didn't give the ontological arguments enough credit (especially the modal ontological argument, which wasn't covered). If I remember correctly, you mentioned some old versions of it like Descartes', but there are modern versions of the argument that are much better.
It basically goes like this:
1) If it is possible that God exists, then God exists
2) It is possible that God exists
3) Therefore, God exists

Premise 1 sounds the most ridiculous, but it's actually usually accepted. The point is that it's based in modal logic. If something is possible, it exists in at least one possible world (which is just some way reality could be). God is defined as a necessary being, so if it exists in one possible world it must exist in all of them, i.e. it must be actual.

The main criticism I can think of is that based on the definition of possibility that the argument uses, you are basically admitting God exists if you admit it's possible. So the argument is basically saying that a necessary being must exist, therefore it exists, which is tautological-- but is that not a bug, but a feature? 

I wonder what your thoughts are on this argument.

[Hojo]

@AtmanIsBrahman Sort of like how you are the infinite causation of yourself and without you there is seen to be nothing.

Edited yesterday at 04:33 PM by Hojo

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, Davino said:

@Nivsch Ou yes, spread the gospel brother!

They are always faster and put the videos before me.

[zurew]

@AtmanIsBrahman its a bad argument, unless you can show the contradiction in saying God doesnt exist (because the word 'necessary' relates to logical necessity)

Everyone will agree that if a  necessary being exists  then it exists in all possible worlds, but other than just assigning the property of necessity to God, for this to be substantial you would have to establish why God has that property.

Merely baking in necessity in the definition wont do much.

 

Most of the arguments for God are trash, and even the ones that go through, they dont conclude the existence of God, they conclude something else (like the Universe has a cause, which is btw controversial).

And as a sidepoint - most arguments use a different definition of God compared to how Leo uses that word ,therefore these arguments are actually concluding something substantially different than what most people on this forum would try to argue for

Edited yesterday at 06:57 PM by zurew

[Leo Gura]

A necessary space kangaroo.

Edited yesterday at 06:56 PM by Leo Gura

[AtmanIsBrahman]

1 hour ago, zurew said:

@AtmanIsBrahman its a bad argument, unless you can show the contradiction in saying God doesnt exist (because the word 'necessary' relates to logical necessity)

You don't need to show contradiction in saying God doesn't exist, you just have to show that God exists in every possible world. If you're talking about substituting in "it is possible that God does not exist" to try to invalidate the argument, that's something you can do, but I don't think it's valid.

1 hour ago, zurew said:

Merely baking in necessity in the definition wont do much.

Well, being necessary is one of the main attributes of God- in fact it is the most fundamental one. Isn't absolute infinity necessary?

[Davino]

The video is so fucking Good. I'm enjoying every bit of it.

[AtmanIsBrahman]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

A necessary space kangaroo.

Are you trying to say that you can substitute in anything for God and still get the same conclusion? God is a necessary being, so it's different from any random thing you can come up with.

[Yimpa]

Video is over 3.5 hours long.

Video was uploaded 18 hours ago.

A YouTube commenter by the name of @SouhailEntertainment commented a timestamp of the entire episode 17 hours ago.

How is that possible!!!

[LifeEnjoyer]

2 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Video is over 3.5 hours long.

Video was uploaded 18 hours ago.

A YouTube commenter by the name of @SouhailEntertainment commented a timestamp of the entire episode 17 hours ago.

How is that possible!!!

Once you jailbreak your mind you can watch Leo's videos on 30x speed

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Video is over 3.5 hours long.

Video was uploaded 18 hours ago.

A YouTube commenter by the name of @SouhailEntertainment commented a timestamp of the entire episode 17 hours ago.

How is that possible!!!

God works in mysterious ways.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, AtmanIsBrahman said:

Are you trying to say that you can substitute in anything for God and still get the same conclusion? God is a necessary being, so it's different from any random thing you can come up with.

Well, eventually you realize that literally everything is necessary. Which is Infinity.

The only way to have any thing is to have everything.

Edited yesterday at 08:28 PM by Leo Gura

[zurew]

17 minutes ago, AtmanIsBrahman said:

You don't need to show contradiction in saying God doesn't exist, you just have to show that God exists in every possible world. If you're talking about substituting in "it is possible that God does not exist" to try to invalidate the argument, that's something you can do, but I don't think it's valid.

Saying that x is necessary (x exists in all possible worlds) means that x not existing entails a contradiction.

Which is why I said - in order for you to show God is necessary you would have to show the contradiction.

I dont know how else you would want to establish that something is necessary.

I dont know what you mean by absolute infinity, but if its something like modal realism where all possible worlds exist, then no - I dont see why would modal realism has to be true - but even aside from that , if that is taken to be true that would lead to modal collapse

 

Edited yesterday at 08:34 PM by zurew