What is the point of torture if it "doesn't work"?

[Basman]

We have already known that torture is ineffective at gathering intelligence for hundreds of years, long before scientific studies corroborated this fact. Because when the pain and suffering reach a high enough level, you'll confess to anything to make the pain go away. Yet torture remains a staple for many governments and groups. The US has numerous black sites across the world where "alleged" terrorists are held and routinely tortured. Israel has come under fire for their torture camps and alleged sexual abuse of inmates.

I was naive to think that torture was purely in the pursuit intelligence. This is not the case. Torture is primarily about domination and terrorizing one's enemies I believe. Torture is a form of terrorism. It's a way to break the will to fight of an enemy group. The existence of Guantanamo Bay sends a quiet message to America's enemies for instance. Russians castrating Ukrainian POWs with boxcutters is clearly meant to demoralize other Ukrainians.

With that understanding, does torture have a place in modern society? Torture is a barbaric act and arguably undermines the legitimacy of a government, especially western societies who value liberty and human rights. It hurts the credibility of the US especially. We would have at least 5 less tankies on this forum if Guantanamo Bay didn't exist. And we are doing a disservice to government personal and soldiers as they didn't exactly sign up to cruelly torture people, I'm sure. And the fact is that governments aren't proud of state sanctioned torture. Otherwise it wouldn't be so secretive.

So do we actually need this kind of terrorism since governments sanction torture anyway? I'm open-minded to hearing counter-arguments.

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, Basman said:

We have already known that torture is ineffective at gathering intelligence for hundreds of years, long before scientific studies corroborated this fact. Because when the pain and suffering reach a high enough level, you'll confess to anything to make the pain go away. Yet torture remains a staple for many governments and groups. The US has numerous black sites across the world where "alleged" terrorists are held and routinely tortured. Israel has come under fire for their torture camps and alleged sexual abuse of inmates.

I was naive to think that torture was purely in the pursuit intelligence. This is not the case. Torture is primarily about domination and terrorizing one's enemies I believe. Torture is a form of terrorism. It's a way to break the will to fight of an enemy group. The existence of Guantanamo Bay sends a quiet message to America's enemies for instance. Russians castrating Ukrainian POWs with boxcutters is clearly meant to demoralize other Ukrainians.

With that understanding, does torture have a place in modern society? Torture is a barbaric act and arguably undermines the legitimacy of a government, especially western societies who value liberty and human rights. It hurts the credibility of the US especially. We would have at least 5 less tankies on this forum if Guantanamo Bay didn't exist. And we are doing a disservice to government personal and soldiers as they didn't exactly sign up to cruelly torture people, I'm sure. And the fact is that governments aren't proud of state sanctioned torture. Otherwise it wouldn't be so secretive.

So do we actually need this kind of terrorism since governments sanction torture anyway? I'm open-minded to hearing counter-arguments.

I don't think there are any counter-arguments.   Unless you asked a vigilante.

Edited Tuesday at 02:25 AM by Inliytened1

[Alex4]

My intuition tells me that if it has been done for thousands of years, it must work. You may not always get reliable information, but it's better than having nothing.

[Raze]

Intimidate potential rebels.

Sadism.

[sholomar]

Used as a form of control. See North Korea.

 

[Basman]

17 hours ago, Alex4 said:

My intuition tells me that if it has been done for thousands of years, it must work. You may not always get reliable information, but it's better than having nothing.

It can take over a month of straight waterboarding to get any intel out of somebody.

With that cost in mind, do you think its ethical if the intel isn't guaranteed to be even true?

[Leo Gura]

The point is to create a climate of fear and repression, so that opponents dare not challenge authority or speak up.

Also, low consciousness people who do torture do not care if it works or not to get workable intel, these people are sadistic, vindictive, and power-hungry. They are bullies. They love the rush of just bullying for its own sake. They think they are doing good and serving God by torturing "evil" people.

Remember, these people believe in Hell, a place where God tortures bad guys. So why not get a head start on that on Earth?

You are dealing with the mentality of the mafia.

Edited Wednesday at 01:36 AM by Leo Gura

[Basman]

I watched this video recently that made it click for me as I always naively assumed that torture is purely for intelligence but that couldn't explain its prevalence considering how inefficient it is for actually gathering intelligence. Of course, it's about domination. That makes perfect sense.

 

Edited Wednesday at 06:09 AM by Basman

[Alex4]

7 hours ago, Basman said:

It can take over a month of straight waterboarding to get any intel out of somebody.

With that cost in mind, do you think its ethical if the intel isn't guaranteed to be even true?

I was going to answer with a firm NO, it's unethical. However, you've made me think of something.

Would you torture a terrorist for a month straight if, in exchange, you could obtain information that would dismantle a terrorist cell that could potentially kill 50 civilians? 

Torturing for revenge or pleasure not only seems unethical to me, but I also see it as counterproductive. What you're going to achieve is giving ammunition to your opponents by lowering yourself to their level and providing them with more reasons to fight against you.

[Epikur]

Of course torture works. Ask yourself would you talk under torture?

[gettoefl]

Torture is, I am a good guy since I spare your life in return for you telling me everything.

The bad guy kills so that his torture is unknown.

Do beware that if you tell that I tortured you, I will hunt down and torture your family.

Most torture is therefore unknown.

Edited Wednesday at 10:52 AM by gettoefl

[Basman]

17 hours ago, Alex4 said:

Would you torture a terrorist for a month straight if, in exchange, you could obtain information that would dismantle a terrorist cell that could potentially kill 50 civilians?

That is a big IF if they are an actual terrorist. It is almost never clear cut. In practice, it tends to turn into brown = terrorist where if you happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time you get abducted and tortured.

There's evidence that there are other ways that are more effective for gathering intelligence that doesn't involve direct torture like the Scharff technique which involves being friendly to your captives and manipulating them to willfully divulge info without realizing.

17 hours ago, Epikur said:

Of course torture works. Ask yourself would you talk under torture?

That is the problem. You can make someone confess to anything under enough duress which makes their info inherently less reliable and accurate. You can make Leo confess to being the son of Hitler with enough torture. But the point of torture is not intelligence first and foremost but domination so it is a moot point.

Edited Thursday at 01:43 AM by Basman

[Leo Gura]

The question, Does torture work?, assumes that torturers care about truth.

Edited Thursday at 01:02 AM by Leo Gura

[Hojo]

Torturer - tell me the truth!

Torturee - you are torturing me !

Torturer - not that truth! Torture more!

Edited Thursday at 05:07 PM by Hojo

[Breakingthewall]

Torture works, there are professionals at torturing, and it's not about being sadistic, but about getting the information. If you torture someone for many days, their will will disappear and they won't be able to lie, unless they are someone exceptionally resistant. If they isolate you, don't let you sleep for days, torture you with electricity, hot irons, pulling out your teeth, etc., for a week, everything will be the same for you, you won't be yourself, you will be suffering, nothing won't matter to you, you won't be able to lie, you just would want that this hell ends

[Breakingthewall]

17 hours ago, Basman said:

That is the problem. You can make someone confess to anything under enough duress which makes their info inherently less reliable and accurate.

A good professional will repeat the questions over and over again, he will note the inconsistencies, will dig until he finds the truth

[Nemra]

Don't truth serums work?

[Breakingthewall]

57 minutes ago, Nemra said:

Don't truth serums work?

That doesn't exist. You can give someone very high doses of drugs, alcohol, psychedelics, to override their will, but without torture a strong will will hold up. 

I assume that the torturers will use professional protocols, proven techniques, lie detectors, etc. They don't have to be sadists, just indifferent, like a cow slaughterhouse employee. They have a job to do and they do it. Obviously there will be many sadistic psychopaths applying for the job, and few empathetic emos, since it must be extremely difficult to get a guy who thinks that if he tells on his colleagues he will go to hell to do it.

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

If you torture someone for many days, their will will disappear and they won't be able to lie,

This is not true.

The problem with this logic is that it assumes you got the right guy. But if you get the wrong guy -- who doesn't know anything -- the more you torture him, the more lies he will invent to get you to stop.

This actually happened with CIA torture programs in the Bush era. The wrong guys were snatched and assumed to be terrorists. But they weren't. And torturing them only made them invent lies which misled the CIA.

Again, this is a failure of basic epistemology. You don't know what others know. Your assumptions about who knows what can be very wrong. Torturing someone assumes you know what they're supposed to know.

Edited Thursday at 10:36 PM by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

That doesn't exist.

Of course it exists.

Sodium thiopental, Amyl nitrite, and Scopolamine. 

Scopolamine is crazy powerful. People reveal their ATM pin codes.

Edited Thursday at 10:35 PM by Leo Gura