The wise choice of quitting spirituality all together.

[RendHeaven]

28 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Pretty much agree. 

You just know it's a challenge to Leo's ego.

So this question is a trap to lure one into semantics and rehetoric.

Or, people just don't know what they're talking about. 

And this is a litmus test, for your own benefit.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Or, people just don't know what they're talking about. 

And this is a litmus test, for your own benefit.

Hard disagree.

If there was some use in this mental masturbation, a genuine push for insight would be the goal.

How tf will anyone learn or grow with no answer.

Leo has some great things to say.

His ego just sometimes takes hold of him completely & he runs with it.

One should always seriously reflect on what they are trying to communicate.

[RendHeaven]

12 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Hard disagree.

If there was some use in this mental masturbation, a genuine push for insight would be the goal.

How tf will anyone learn or grow with no answer.

Leo has some great things to say.

His ego just sometimes takes hold of him completely & he runs with it.

One should always seriously reflect on what they are trying to communicate.

I understand your frustration, especially given that (I assume) you identify more with feminine energies, which means you thrive and grow through affirmation.

As a masculine guy, we thrive and grow through challenge (imagine rams locking horns and butting heads), which can appear unnecessary, stressful, or even counterproductive from the feminine POV.

It's an energy preference.

Personally, I did not read Leo as being egoic here at all.

Right now the situation is like a math student arguing with a calculus professor but the student hasn't even gone through algebra 1 yet. 

The calculus professor then says, "alright, explain calculus to me. I'm not giving you any answers. If your study is legit, then we'll talk. But if it turns out you're full of hot air, then I'm simply not going to keep arguing with you, I have too much self respect to entertain your bluster"

This is completely fair from the masculine POV. Has nothing to do with Leo's ego, it's just basic pragmatism. We have limited time and energy, so we don't have time to coddle fools

Now, the feminine might have its own solution to this student-professor dilemma, like it may want to extend empathy and affirmation to the student and be more understanding and patient.

[RendHeaven]

52 minutes ago, TruthFreedom said:

Easy.

Sanity is seeing the Truth.

Insanity is Lies.

A web of lies can lead to Sanity. And the Truth can reveal Insanity.

[theleelajoker]

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

I understand your frustration, especially given that (I assume) you identify more with feminine energies, which means you thrive and grow through affirmation.

As a masculine guy, we thrive and grow through challenge (imagine rams locking horns and butting heads), which can appear unnecessary, stressful, or even counterproductive from the feminine POV.

It's an energy preference.

Personally, I did not read Leo as being egoic here at all.

Right now the situation is like a math student arguing with a calculus professor but the student hasn't even gone through algebra 1 yet. 

The calculus professor then says, "alright, explain calculus to me. I'm not giving you any answers. If your study is legit, then we'll talk. But if it turns out you're full of hot air, then I'm simply not going to keep arguing with you, I have too much self respect to entertain your bluster"

This is completely fair from the masculine POV. Has nothing to do with Leo's ego, it's just basic pragmatism. We have limited time and energy, so we don't have time to coddle fools

Now, the feminine might have its own solution to this student-professor dilemma, like it may want to extend empathy and affirmation to the student and be more understanding and patient.

Sounds to me like: Generalizing. Projecting. Lots of concepts. not much substance.

I am a man, I feel very good about my masculine energy and I learn through infinite ways. I teach professionally and I see men learn through an infinity of ways. I see women learn though an infinity of ways.

These whole masculine/feminine things seems to me like an excuse to behave a certain way, to justify one's one behavior instead of truly being present, truly seeing context, truly recognizing the individuality of each person, situation and moment. I guess stems from the fact that Leo is/was big with the pick-up scene and these kind of mindset also attracts certain kind of followers.

Edited yesterday at 11:37 AM by theleelajoker

[Nemra]

@Someone here, I don't know about you, but I'm glad that I did take a risk to travel and try it at least once.

It is worth a lot even if I understood a tiny bit of that experience.

Now, it's a bit disappointing that I won't get into that state naturally but it sure is a huge motivation to change my situation.

Edited yesterday at 11:44 AM by Nemra

[Vibes]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I want to hear one person here explain what sanity and insanity is.

You know not how deep Mind goes.

@Leo Gura Sanity is construction. You construct / conditioned your identity as a human and have everything figured out in a very limited and organized way, you think you know what all the things around you are, you think you know that what science has told you is reality, and you think you know what you are. Insanity is deconstruction, you don't have a firm ground anymore. Forms morphing and you can't pin yourself in anything, you are in angry open sea being carried around.

Edited yesterday at 11:57 AM by Vibes

[Natasha Tori Maru]

4 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

I understand your frustration, especially given that (I assume) you identify more with feminine energies, which means you thrive and grow through affirmation.

As a masculine guy, we thrive and grow through challenge (imagine rams locking horns and butting heads), which can appear unnecessary, stressful, or even counterproductive from the feminine POV.

It's an energy preference.

Personally, I did not read Leo as being egoic here at all.

Right now the situation is like a math student arguing with a calculus professor but the student hasn't even gone through algebra 1 yet. 

The calculus professor then says, "alright, explain calculus to me. I'm not giving you any answers. If your study is legit, then we'll talk. But if it turns out you're full of hot air, then I'm simply not going to keep arguing with you, I have too much self respect to entertain your bluster"

This is completely fair from the masculine POV. Has nothing to do with Leo's ego, it's just basic pragmatism. We have limited time and energy, so we don't have time to coddle fools

Now, the feminine might have its own solution to this student-professor dilemma, like it may want to extend empathy and affirmation to the student and be more understanding and patient.

No. 

Nothing to do with negative / positive packaging. 

Nothing to do with feminine / masculine. Forget I am a woman, don't assume anything about my preferences 

Basic feedback. 

How can you grow if you have no idea you are a potato? 

Where did you get the idea - I - need affirmation? 

I didn't say anything about conveying the answer in rainbows and butterflies. 

An answer is necessary to teaching, especially when the question implies there is one, and it's some sort of shittest. Or at least correction/guidance in lieu of an answer 

 

Edited yesterday at 03:03 PM by Natasha Tori Maru

[RendHeaven]

3 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Generalizing

Of course

3 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Projecting

You're the one in a knot over Leo's challenge, not me.

[RendHeaven]

21 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

An answer is necessary to teaching

Right, but the teacher reserves the right to stay silent - and yes, judge - until the student proves himself capable of a more earnest heart to heart.

The student doesn't get to demand answers or accuse the teacher of being "egoic" when considering the larger dynamic.

[aurum]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Before you guys wax on about how you've figured all this out and how easy it is, I want to hear one person here explain what sanity and insanity is.

You know not how deep Mind goes.

I’ll take a shot at it.

Sanity is a particularized state of consciousness characterized by internal coherence. It is generated by the sum total and interconnection of rules, memory and consistency within the experience. Because sanity is local to that state of consciousness, it does not need to hold outside that state. Sanity is useful for creating certain kinds of experiences and must necessarily exist and be imagined within the infinity of Mind.

Insanity is also a state of consciousness, characterized by a lack of internal coherence. It is a loosening of said rules and interconnections. Taken all the way, insanity is unlimited Mind, unbound by all constraints.

Insanity is not conducive for most creatures and normal human experience. Because it of this and because it is fundamentally a different state of consciousness, it must be experienced to be truly understood.

[theleelajoker]

4 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

Of course

You're the one in a knot over Leo's challenge, not me.

What a good boy you are!

 

[Eskilon]

10 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

For example, you don't want to get raped or tortured. You don't want to be mutilated or scarred or violated or degraded or oppressed or shamed. You reject violence and cruelty and injustice and unfairness. You're not willing to lose your mind and spend an eternity alone. You're not willing to be physically stranded in the Atlantic ocean at night by yourself with nothing to hold onto and only the great unknown stretching endlessly beneath you. You're not willing to be naked in the cold, you're not willing to have cancer, you're not willing to be born deformed and ostracized. You're not willing to watch your mom turn into fish who gets cut up for someone else's meal. you're not willing to end your life to turn into a worm who lives its whole life in the soil, only to crawl to the surface one day and wither up in the harsh sunlight. You're not willing to live through Auschwitz as a Jew or factory farms as a pig. You're not emotionally ready give up your life, and to instead live through the entire life of Hitler, down to every last detail - personally architecting a genocide. Real surrender means living through things you cannot surrender to. Real surrender means to BE in all its rawness, even as you kick and scream and beg for it to end. Real surrender means taking a shit thinking you're sitting on a toilet, but then the poop that comes out your asshole ends up in your mouth, and you become a perpetual motion machine as the poop you swallow comes out of your asshole and back into your mouth in a loop for eternity. Real surrender means the absolute end of the universe, forever, no going back, and you forge forward without looking back.

Yeah Truth is all that, but Truth is also infinite orgasm, infinite goodness and infinite benevolence. So in the end you will not just experience all the "negative"(from the ego's point of view) stuff, you will experience all the goodness(again from the ego's point of view) too. I know you are making your point to say that Truth is not just rainbows and butteflies, but it also not just hell and suffering. And honestly all this conversation is still limited from consciousness point of view, no human will ever fully comprehend consciousness and talk about it using dualistic language. That's why it's better to avoid talking about the absolute.

Edited yesterday at 07:43 PM by Eskilon

[Natasha Tori Maru]

4 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

Right, but the teacher reserves the right to stay silent - and yes, judge - until the student proves himself capable of a more earnest heart to heart.

The student doesn't get to demand answers or accuse the teacher of being "egoic" when considering the larger dynamic.

5 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

Read the thread again and put it in context.

I'm not debating things based on larger dynamic. 

Users have attempted to answer the OPs question, Leo pops in, clearly having issue with the answers, derails with his version of a litmus test.

Instead of addressing why he thinks advice is incorrect, he simply diverts to his own semantic argument he wants to attempt to win. 

In this context not supplying feedback is just to maintain seperation between him and the users. 

Seperation = ego 

Ego = contraction.

Which is the exact opposite of the OPs topic: how to maintain spiritual practice while enduring the suffering of life. 

It's possible for many others to have the skill to reconcile the work with life. Leo appears to not have reached this point as he still claims negativity from spiritual work (or at least it's implied). 

 

[RendHeaven]

7 hours ago, Eskilon said:

Yeah Truth is all that, but Truth is also infinite orgasm, infinite goodness and infinite benevolence.

@Eskilon In fact, Infinite orgasm, Infinite Goodness, and Infinite benevolence are all the things I listed earlier.

[RendHeaven]

6 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

derails

Yes, he did derail I will grant you that

[Eskilon]

17 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

In fact, Infinite orgasm, Infinite Goodness, and Infinite benevolence are all the things I listed earlier.

It is, but you didn't frame it that way in your message. You were using words like "easy" "worse" and so on. Clearly you are not talking only about the absolute here, there is still ego, however small it may be. 

[Lyubov]

Ever since I have started practicing and studying Taoism, I don’t see anything in my  life as separate from spirituality. There are no mistakes in creation from my point of view. There are things I deeply dislike and think are wrong but I see how they all play a role. I see this is a continuous path and life keeps coming at us. Each chapter in life is equally important and ultimately every moment has a lesson in it. So I don’t think it’s possible to quit spirituality but it is possible to quit practices or ways of living life that don’t serve us. Read the Tao Te Ching, it’s very helpful if you want to just remove yourself from lofty notions and life your life fully and at the same time grow spiritually. Each path is unique and different, remember the pursuit of truth is unique to you. 

[theleelajoker]

1 hour ago, Lyubov said:

Ever since I have started practicing and studying Taoism, I don’t see anything in my  life as separate from spirituality. There are no mistakes in creation from my point of view. There are things I deeply dislike and think are wrong but I see how they all play a role. I see this is a continuous path and life keeps coming at us. Each chapter in life is equally important and ultimately every moment has a lesson in it. So I don’t think it’s possible to quit spirituality but it is possible to quit practices or ways of living life that don’t serve us. Read the Tao Te Ching, it’s very helpful if you want to just remove yourself from lofty notions and life your life fully and at the same time grow spiritually. Each path is unique and different, remember the pursuit of truth is unique to you. 

Many similarities with my experience. Of course I dislike things,too. But they play their part. I would say I just got better at accepting things, less resistance.

What's different for me is the lack of Taoism focus. I look at different systems including Taoism but also others - Hinduism, Stoicism, Buddhism etc and integrate parts of everything. Which is why I like your last sentence that is incredible crucial IMO:

Quote

Each path is unique and different, remember the pursuit of truth is unique to you. 

 

[RendHeaven]

9 hours ago, Eskilon said:

It is, but you didn't frame it that way in your message. You were using words like "easy" "worse" and so on. Clearly you are not talking only about the absolute here, there is still ego, however small it may be. 

Correct - and my point was that I myself reject my own insight. And nobody here is above this.

When I say: "In fact, Infinite orgasm, Infinite Goodness, and Infinite benevolence are all the things I listed earlier" - part of me can't accept that. That tension is by design, and I don't trust anybody who claims they can "effortlessly surrender" to Truth overnight.

Ultimately, yes, Truth/Love must be effortless because it is all that there is. But that's a Platonic, holistic meta-insight, and not any of our lived experiences. In practice, we are the ones that make Truth/Love difficult. That's not a "limiting belief," that is an essential cornerstone of the Awakening journey. And it will never go away. Because there is a bottomless wormhole in surrendering to Truth, and Consciousness will always have its tolerance limit (an ever-expanding ladder of Self-Acceptance. It doesn't end!) 

You must imagine even the most proficient spiritual guru has a a tolerance limit at which he recoils in horror, shits his pants and starts crying for mommy. Not because Consciousness is evil or bad, but because his current Identity is incapable generating and holding truly UNLIMITED Love for all. Because as much Love as this human can muster, Infinity will eclipse and circumscribe his mastered domain, and he is forced to "stretch" outwards, to "fill space" beyond his mastered domain, as his Love is Eternally tested. How is it possible that even an enlightened person would struggle with limits? Because God itself recoils at itself. That's all this ever was! But God Loves itself for not being able to Love itself, and gently guides itself further into Itself, resolving the conflict until it hits the next wall (which, too, is itself).

Thus, being near the bottom of that ladder, we inevitably recoil (at the horrors of our own vastness) after a certain level of exposure to Truth. Truth/Love is a project of progressive overload. The exposure level at which you recoil today will be effortless to you 5 years from now after you've familiarized yourself with more Consciousness.

This project of ascending the Infinite Surrender ladder is not a human project across linear time. It is the MO of the ONE Consciousness, and this is all You have ever done and will ever do for Eternity.

The high-level telos of this progressive overload is the Actualization/Flowering of metaphysical Love. It's designed as a ladder with threshold guardians as rungs because this is most compelling way to make the Love obvious and visceral.

Anybody who thinks that the exploration of Consciousness is a cakewalk simply does not fathom their own depth and has never even reached the first threshold guardian (of which there are Infinite).