WATCH: Trump argues with Zelenskyy in Oval Office

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Zelensky literally offered to step down as president of Ukraine in exchange for an end to the war.

Your understanding of the situation is inaccurate. Zelensky is behaving selflessly and honorably.

He said in exchange for Ukraine in NATO.

[Jodistrict]

This is interesting.  Lindsey Graham said Zelensky was a disaster and hinted that Zelensky should resign.  Lindsey Graham is a neocon and a big supporter of Ukraine, he has been there 8 or 9 times.  

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/cx2g7yedg74o

[Leo Gura]

41 minutes ago, Raze said:

He said in exchange for Ukraine in NATO.

But realistically that is the only way for Ukraine to have security guarantees so Putin cannot reinvade.

Ukraine cannot take Trump's empty words of guarantee seriously in a peace deal. It is obvious that Trump will not put US troops into Ukraine to stop a second Putin invasion. That is why Zelensky needs NATO backing.

Edited Saturday at 02:20 AM by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Jodistrict said:

Here is an interesting article "Biden lost temper with Zelensky"      So maybe Zelensky is more of a problem than we think.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/biden-lost-temper-zelenskyy-phone-call-ukraine-aid-rcna54592

Of course Ukraine needs hundreds of billions of more aid. It needs it as long as Putin keeps the war going.

[Leo Gura]

40 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

This is interesting.  Lindsey Graham said Zelensky was a disaster and hinted that Zelensky should resign.  Lindsey Graham is a neocon and a big supporter of Ukraine

Lindsey Graham is a Trump asskisser. All he cares about is keeping his own power, which means not upsetting Trump.

[Raze]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Lindsey Graham is a Trump asskisser. All he cares about is keeping his own power, which means not upsetting Trump.

He came out against trumps Gaza plan.

Probably he dislikes Zelensky not agreeing to the mineral plan. Like a month or two prior he talked about wanting access to Ukraines minerals.

[Raze]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But realistically that is the only way for Ukraine to have security guarantees so Putin cannot reinvade.

Ukraine cannot take Trump's empty words of guarantee seriously in a peace deal. It is obvious that Trump will not put US troops into Ukraine to stop a second Putin invasion. That is why Zelensky needs NATO backing.

But that’s a ridiculous demand. It’s been known from well before the war started Russia sees Ukraine in NATO as a threat.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

He came out against trumps Gaza plan.

Probably he dislikes Zelensky not agreeing to the mineral plan. Like a month or two prior he talked about wanting access to Ukraines minerals.

He will take whatever positions he thinks he can get away with. It's opportunism.

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

But that’s a ridiculous demand. It’s been known from well before the war started Russia sees Ukraine in NATO as a threat.

But Russia would presumably be able to keep the land it invaded. So it's a reasonable compromise.

Zelensky basically cannot stop the war without some solid security guarantees as that would be suicidal.

And anyway, it shows that Zelensky is not in this for personal power.

Edited Saturday at 02:38 AM by Leo Gura

[aurum]

Disgusting and embarrassing.

JD Vance is such a smug prick. 

 

[Raze]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

But Russia would presumably be able to keep the land it invaded. So it's a reasonable compromise.

Zelensky basically cannot stop the war without some solid security guarantees as that would be suicidal.

Then Putin wouldn’t agree to stop the war if the security guarantee is making Ukraine an existential threat in his eyes 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Raze said:

Then Putin wouldn’t agree to stop the war if the security guarantee is making Ukraine an existential threat in his eyes 

Hence we have war and his Trump peace talk is just bullshit from Trump.

It was obvious to anyone with half a brain that Trump was incapable of making a quick easy peace deal here. As if peace deals haven't been tried over the last 3 years. A peace deal wasn't made because Putin is unwilling to compromise because he thinks he can dominate Ukraine to get everything he wants.

You can't compromise with someone who thinks we can just take everything he wants. A compromise here would require getting Putin to feel like he might otherwise pay a heavy price. Trump has made him feel the opposite.

Edited Saturday at 02:43 AM by Leo Gura

[Raze]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hence we have war and his Trump peace talk is just bullshit from Trump.

It was obvious to anyone with half a brain that Trump was incapable of making a quick easy peace deal here. As if peace deals haven't been tried over the last 3 years. A peace deal wasn't made because Putin is unwilling to compromise because he thinks he can dominate Ukraine to get everything he wants.

You can't compromise with someone who thinks we can just take everything he wants. A compromise here would require getting Putin to feel like he might otherwise pay a heavy price. Trump has made him feel the opposite.

Even if Putin took the entire country he’d have to expend massive indefinite resources to occupy it and deal with an insurgency while under harsh sanctions.

A reasonable deal would be let Putin keep the four oblasts and give Putin assurances Ukraine will remain neutral.

The security guarantee to Ukraine can be that if he violates it the military aid and sanctions continue, this time not stopping.

Anything else is essentially just saying Ukraine continues a war of attrition until it is totally destroyed.

Edited Saturday at 02:48 AM by Raze

[Joshe]

Jesus Christ that was so fucking embarrassing. You have the president and the vice president of the U.S acting like schoolyard bullies on live television.  JD is the bully in training like, "Yeah, you see, you need to thank this great man right here, isn't that right Mr. Trump! He hasn't thanked you yet!" and the big bully is like " Yeah, little bully is right" and when Zelensky goes to say "I've said thank you many times", little bully increases decibel by 2x, "Frankly SIR!!!!" Then big bully doubles that decibel. The icing on the cake: many stage orange dumbasses have their jaws dropped, jizzing their pants in utter amazement and awe of how a real business man gets things done. 

This clip demonstrates utter incompetence, idiocy, and cringe af brown-nosing. 

This exchange seems like it could trigger some devastating consequences. If you're a developed leader from a developed nation and you watch this, you probably have lost a lot of faith in the US. 

Edited Saturday at 02:58 AM by Joshe

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, Raze said:

A reasonable deal would be let Putin keep the four oblasts and give Putin assurances Ukraine will remain neutral.

The security guarantee to Ukraine can be that if he violates it the military aid and sanctions continue, this time not stopping.

That is not reasonable. That is bending over and letting Putin screw you in the ass.

[Lyubov]

3 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

For Zelensky and the Ukranian Oligarchs, the war is a perpetual influx of American money, so they have no motivation to end it.   The land the Russians took was already 95% Russian.  Western Ukraine is more European.  Ukraine could still have a country and be more European if they want, if they can negotiate some security guarantees.  Zelensky should be trying to get the best deal possible.  You have to look at the big picture.  For America, the Ukranian/Russia conflict is just a drain on resources, and the big threat is China.  Driving Russia into an alliance with China over Ukraine does not serve American interest. This is why Nixon decided to got to China (to disrupt the Russia/China relationship).   As for Putin, are you assuming a new Russian leader is going to be anymore friendly to the West?   Focusing on Putin as the bad guy is just neo-liberal propaganda.

I mean, I don’t entirely disagree with you up until your last sentence which is pointless and a bit ridiculous to say. I don’t see how giving up on Ukraine keeps China from starting a war with Taiwan. This literally shows that with the switch in administration, support can be dropped. Ukraine being sold out basically means all China has to do is start shit and wait for the American public to get tired. Trump won’t do shit about anything. NATO is dead at this point. USA has tarnished its image beyond repair after Trump diplomacy. I don’t even see how anyone can see this leading to diminished perks for us as citizens. I await the eventually war in Asia and USA citizens just sitting by surprised. 

[Hojo]

I agree its too much money to give to a country thats not even part of nato. Is America saving the entire planet from getting single cities taken over? Yes there was an agreement and putin didn't follow. Its alot of money for territory usa wont even own and they can't join nato. Russian won't let nato border it.

So you save ukraine, russia makes a deal take one city ok. Now ukraine still cant be part of nato and then Russia breaks agreement again and invades one more city. Are you going to attack Russia now and have ww3? No. Are you going to fund ukraine to attack and regain the lost territory again?

A better answer is where can I make a play somewhere else? Maybe ukraine surrenders to usa. Big brain. Or ukraine surrenders its land to China. If they surrender to usa they will gain the biggest military and get to keep their land pretty much. Probably much better than if Russia does it.

Edited Saturday at 03:47 AM by Hojo

[puporing]

Putin's not here to just take over a "single city". It's much more than that, it's his whole twisted ideology. He is constantly trying to bring more and more of the people of this world to "his fold", firstly by manipulations, then by sheer force/threat of sheer force if necessary.

Trump is obviously an easy target.

Metaphysically speaking, he is trying to snuffle out the presence of "Christ"/the Light of Consciousness/Truth.

Edited Saturday at 03:48 AM by puporing

[Lyubov]

Europe equally fucked up as well. Trump has been salivating over leaving NATO for ages. It should have been a wake up call the moment you saw he was running again to get your shit in order, way before that, back in 2022. It’s time for Europe to build an army. Not these stupid summits which they never do anything after. 

Edited Saturday at 03:40 AM by Lyubov

[Hojo]

@puporing This is what trump is saying he is saying when putin signed that deal he realized he didn't like it can never make another one so he attacked ukraine to negotiate another deal. Trump is saying that this is what is happening and is saying you are going to have to give something up to satisfy this because we can't infinite fund a proxy war while not wanting to go to ww3. He's saying you need to give something up then we will see what happens. Zelenski is saying I don't trust you even tho billions were funded. If they negotiate and russia attacks again trump might say no to Russia but no one trusts him here.

Trump is saying he agrees that Russia should have gotten more out of the deal. Is he right? I have no idea.

Edited Saturday at 04:18 AM by Hojo

[puporing]

9 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@puporing This is what trump is saying he is saying when putin signed that deal he realized he didn't like it can never make another one so he attacked ukraine to negotiate another deal. Trump is saying that this is what is happening and is saying you are going to have to give something up to satisfy this because we can't infinite fund a proxy war while not wanting to go to ww3. He's saying you need to give something up then we will see what happens. Zelenski is saying I don't trust you even tho billions were funded. If they negotiate and russia attacks again trump might say no.

Well Trump is still too ideologically similar to Putin. He's still constantly talking about acquiring other territories. So it's not a mistake that he does not condemn Putin's aggressions.

If you actually had a good leader in the US, Russia would be "finished" by now.

As in, they would have to stop by the presence of a strong leader and military capabilities/alliances.

In this case I think a strong leader would make sure that Putin understands that he is cornered. 

But basically so far nobody from the US administration has been strong enough to checkmate him.

If Zelensky was now the US president, Putin would be finished.

Edited Saturday at 04:24 AM by puporing