WATCH: Trump argues with Zelenskyy in Oval Office

[hoodrow trillson]

1 hour ago, puporing said:

Ok but I think we have no choice but to keep trying to "educate Trump" since he's still the president and will be for a long time. There's not much of a choice because otherwise I think Putin will continue the wars on the bordering nations that oppose him.

People said that maybe him having a near death experience (bullet whizzing by his fat orange head), that he’d maybe change and go towards a better direction.  

Nope.  He’s doubled down since then.  It’s hopeless, that shit is ingrained into every fiber of his body.  If almost getting your head blown off doesn’t radically change you, nothing will.

 

[Schizophonia]

If Europe wants to defend Ukraine, it should do so with its own means.

[Nilsi]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

I recommend watching the full press conference. The discussion started polite and Trump said he was agreeing to a sign a long term financing agreement. It got heated because Zelensky kept interjecting and trying to start an argument.

When Trump said people died on both sides, Zelensky needlessly interjected saying Russians were invaders, Vance made a good point that constantly demonizing Russia in the media has not helped negotiations, and it started the argument.

I’m thinking Zelensky did this on purpose, either because he wants to US to reduce or stop aid so he can agree to end the war but blame them, or to make more of a split between the Us and Europe to get Europe to finance more and hope in the next four years a different admin more in favor of indefinite military spending will come along.

The issue is that Trump refuses to offer Ukraine any security guarantees in case Russia reneges on a peace agreement - which, under Putin, they have done before.

[puporing]

20 minutes ago, Raze said:

, Zelensky needlessly interjected saying Russians were invaders,

It's not needless argument. It's necessary information because Trump and his friends are clearly still in denial about what Putin did, just as you are to some extent.

It is not demonization to call someone for what they have demonstrated to be, invader, a murderer, liar to his people, imperialist dictator.

Not calling them out exactly what they have done will enable them to keep doing what they are doing.

Edited Friday at 09:13 PM by puporing

[Loving Radiance]

Damn. I feel sorry for Ukraine and also Zelensky for having to put up with this alpha-aping clown.

[Raze]

4 minutes ago, puporing said:

It's not needless argument. It's necessary information because Trump and his friends are clearly still in denial about what Putin did, just as you are to some extent.

It is not demonization to call someone for what they have demonstrated to be, invader, a murderer, liar to his people, imperialist dictator.

Not calling them out exactly what they have done will enable them to keep doing what they are doing.

You don’t call someone out in the middle of negotiations where you want them to make concessions 

[Rafael Thundercat]

2 hours ago, Nilsi said:

Also, where was the "respect" when JD Vance ran his mouth about Europe in Munich a couple of weeks ago? Absolute scum. These people are so full of themselves - it’s insane. Disgusting American arrogance at its peak.

I’ve never felt more patriotic, more proud to be European than during this Trump administration. Seems like we’re the only adults left in the room. 

I believe NATO is finished, and with each passing day, democracies fade. We must defend our democratic values at all costs - which is why Zelensky was bold and brave, though perhaps not even bold enough. If I were him, I would have grabbed Trump by the collar and screamed in his face, demanding to know whether he’s truly that much of a moron or if he simply refuses to grasp that we are in a war ignited by an egomaniacal dictator.

I thought the same thing, but he probably would not get out alive from US if he did it. Remember that Trump is a Devil with Fan club

[puporing]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

You don’t call someone out in the middle of negotiations where you want them to make concessions 

Depends, Zelensky had to do it coz he's not so corrupt like the other leaders.

[Consept]

Is this solid proof that Trumps a Russian asset? Not that it's not obvious anyway but this is pretty concrete now right?

[Something Funny]

2 minutes ago, Raze said:

You don’t call someone out in the middle of negotiations where you want them to make concessions 

Exactly, which is why trump and vance should have learned some respect and "shushed their mouths", using president Musk's  son's words.

[Rafael Thundercat]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

I would love to believe in this, but the reality is that we have no significant military capabilities compared to the U.S., Russia, or China. Even if we grow our economy, any real push for military strength would only provoke intervention from these powers, who see a strong Europe as a threat.

Nonetheless, I agree that this should remain the goal. But reaching it will require far more flexibility in forging temporary strategic alliances as we move toward a post-NATO, post-Bretton Woods world order.

I have  feeling of leaving Europe. But the way corruption works, there is no other place to escape what can come from the continuarion of this human story. 

[MarkKol]

What a disastrous discussion 

The Oval Office turned into a high school

[zazen]

Imagine that energy reserved for Netenyahu.

 

All of a sudden security concerns matter, but they didn’t when Russia warned way back when, for NATO not to inch up to its doorstep. Zelenskyy wants the kind of security guarantees that set this war in motion in the first place. He’s effectively asking for article 5/NATO level privileges, without being part of NATO.

This is the US realising the Wests position in this and doing its best to repackage the situation as a win. Trying to maintain an image of strength on the world stage as it loses its status. The US will be a superpower, but it can no longer be a supreme one reigning supreme upon the globe.

The reality is:

- Russia produces 3 million shells annually, x3 more than US/Europe combined.

- They are on par in number of tanks with NATO (including US) except that half of NATO’s tanks are in the US and the rest are scattered far away from Ukraine in other EU countries. Russia is also refurbishing and churning out 1’500 tanks annually now.

- They’ve taken 20% of Ukraine, most of the ethnically Russian speaking regions which they can now sit tight on and have much easier holding power vs going further into Ukraine where they’d continuously face insurgencies and native Ukraine resistance (rightly so).

- They’ve achieved enough territorial depth to secure the Russian heartland and core (Moscow). 

- They don’t need to do anything except wait it out in a war of attrition from here on out. The West simply doesn’t have the industrial capacity or cheap energy to play the long game. Even EU hikes in defence spending aren’t going to change the result of this war. Re-industrialisation takes years, if at all possible. Any such thinking that their should be no negotiating with Putin and we should fight fight fight, is delusion.

- In a war of attrition, you need things to attrit. The lack of things to attrit is the result of neoliberal policies that prioritized financial gains over industrial strength, hollowing out the middle class while enriching the elites. Financialization transformed economies into casinos, where betting on asset bubbles and speculation became more profitable than producing real goods, building factories, or maintaining self-sufficiency.

- The defence spending hikes will only be for future proofing the continent. And it won’t do so conventionally ie cheap labour and fossil fuels. It can’t outproduce Russia / China, it needs to out-innovate.

- Breakthroughs in green tech / nuclear to get cheap energy + breakthroughs in automation / AI robotics to replace high labor costs for industrialisation + raw material access from Latin America / Africa where China / Russia already secured supplies from or just have breakthrough in material sciences.

The issue as you can see is that the West is getting behind, if not already is behind in some critical areas. Even in ships China has a x200 greater building capacity than the US. AI, drones, hypersonics - ditto. China isn’t even competing with the US, just itself at this point.

 

Edited Friday at 11:52 PM by zazen

[Jodistrict]

For Zelensky and the Ukranian Oligarchs, the war is a perpetual influx of American money, so they have no motivation to end it.   The land the Russians took was already 95% Russian.  Western Ukraine is more European.  Ukraine could still have a country and be more European if they want, if they can negotiate some security guarantees.  Zelensky should be trying to get the best deal possible.  You have to look at the big picture.  For America, the Ukranian/Russia conflict is just a drain on resources, and the big threat is China.  Driving Russia into an alliance with China over Ukraine does not serve American interest. This is why Nixon decided to got to China (to disrupt the Russia/China relationship).   As for Putin, are you assuming a new Russian leader is going to be anymore friendly to the West?   Focusing on Putin as the bad guy is just neo-liberal propaganda.

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, MarkKol said:

What a disastrous discussion 

The Oval Office turned into a high school

It’s Jerry Springer Wrestling type stuff.

 

 

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Jodistrict said:

For Zelensky and the Ukranian Oligarchs, the war is a perpetual influx of American money, so they have no motivation to end it.   The land the Russians took was already 95% Russian.  Western Ukraine is more European.  Ukraine could still have a country and be more European if they want, if they can negotiate some security guarantees.  Zelensky should be trying to get the best deal possible.  You have to look at the big picture.  For America, the Ukranian/Russia conflict is just a drain on resources, and the big threat is China.  Driving Russia into an alliance with China over Ukraine does not serve American interest. This is why Nixon decided to got to China (to disrupt the Russia/China relationship).   As for Putin, are you assuming a new Russian leader is going to be anymore friendly to the West?   Focusing on Putin as the bad guy is just neo-liberal propaganda.

Most gullible post i‘ve seen in a minute.

 

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

so they have no motivation to end it.

Zelensky literally offered to step down as president of Ukraine in exchange for an end to the war.

Your understanding of the situation is inaccurate. Zelensky is behaving selflessly and honorably.

Edited Friday at 11:49 PM by Leo Gura

[UnbornTao]

 

[Jodistrict]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Zelensky literally offered to step down as president of Ukraine in exchange for an end to the war.

Your understanding of the situation is inaccurate. Zelensky is behaving selflessly and honorably.

Here is an interesting article "Biden lost temper with Zelensky"      So maybe Zelensky is more of a problem than we think.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/biden-lost-temper-zelenskyy-phone-call-ukraine-aid-rcna54592

[The Crocodile]

11 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

Here is an interesting article "Biden lost temper with Zelensky"      So maybe Zelensky is more of a problem than we think.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/biden-lost-temper-zelenskyy-phone-call-ukraine-aid-rcna54592

The Russian army should be slaughtered down to the last 18-year-old to protect a single inch of Ukrainian land. The Ukrainians did need more resources, in fact the US should have just threatened war with Russia to begin with to prevent the invasion. Zelenskyy should have slapped and spat on trump.