WATCH: Trump argues with Zelenskyy in Oval Office

[puporing]

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Then, as Putin is evil in my opinion, let's promote hostility with my neighbor who has nuclear power to destroy the world and a war tradition that kept the entire West in check for decades. It seems like a bad idea if what you want is to live

I don't know if they were "promoting" hostility. Someone started it first, and then you get a response. Just like how if someone punched you in the face over and over you might have some kind of response than just allowing them to keep doing it.

Because Ukrainians now are firmly in the democratic camp, Putin also feels more hostility towards them.

Edited Sunday at 06:26 PM by puporing

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, puporing said:

I don't know if they were "promoting" hostility. Someone started it first, and then you get a response. Just like how if someone punched you in the face over and over you might have some kind of response than just allowing them to keep doing it.

Because Ukrainians now are firmly in the democratic camp, Putin also feels more hostility towards them..

The main problem was Crimea, very strategic place. Crimea belonged to the Ottoman Empire and was populated by Tatars. Stalin expelled the Tatars and populated it with Russians, Khrushchev, a president of the Soviet Union of Ukrainian origin, gifted Crimea to Ukraine to "unite the destinies of Ukraine and Russia forever"😅. Currently 70% of the population is Russian, 20% if I remember correctly Ukrainian and 10 Tatars. There was a referendum and obviously the option to join Russia won. After the referendum the Russian army entered to guarantee annexation. From that moment Ukraine entered an undeclared war against Russia. The US saw this and poured gasoline on the fire. The fire grew and became a war, and Ukraine burned. who is to blame? I don't know, but it's stupid to fall into something like that, it was totally predictable. Hundreds of thousands have died due to the stupidity of greedy, stupid and stubborn politicians. 

Again, I don't like Putin, I prefer democracy, not propaganda, I'm sorry is someone doesn't like what I said, I think that they are just facts to understand the situation 

Edited Sunday at 06:35 PM by Breakingthewall

[puporing]

@Breakingthewall 

That is a tricky situation and question. But should that have been allowed to happen in the first place? All of a sudden any state (as part of a nation) can just start some referendum to join another one? You see how quickly this will become a huge mess.

What was the voter turnout? How much did Russia's influence such as manipulation tactics played a role?

If Russia was acting in good faith (eg, not there to take more regions), they should just relocate people who wanted to immigrate to Russia.

Edited Sunday at 06:49 PM by puporing

[Breakingthewall]

11 minutes ago, puporing said:

@Breakingthewall 

That is a tricky situation and question. But should that have been allowed to happen in the first place? All of a sudden any nation can just start some referendum to join another one? You see how quickly this will become a huge mess.

What was the voter turnout? How much did Russia's influence such as manipulation tactics played a role?

If Russia was acting in good faith (eg, not there to take more regions), they should just relocate people who wanted to immigrate to Russia.

There were international observers and there were no irregularities, but it is obvious if 70% of the population is Russian. Is it fair and legal? Maybe not but it is not a normal situation, they are not countries with borders that have been delimited for hundreds of years, it is a place that has recently belonged to Ukraine by virtue of a strange donation. What to do? a war against russia? It is what has been done. What could go wrong? Everything. Who comes up with this? Look, this is the Azov battalion, the army that was at war in the Dombass. Its commander was the leader of the radical fans of the Dynamo kyiv football team. Does this seem normal to you?

Edited Sunday at 06:57 PM by Breakingthewall

[puporing]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

but it is obvious if 70% of the population is Russian. Is it fair and legal? Maybe not but it is not a normal situation, they are not countries with borders that have been delimited for hundreds of years,

This is the same talking points that people like Putin, Xijinping uses, now Donald Trump. This line of thought is being used to crush Ukraine who as a whole want independence from Russia and Putin.

--

And you're not really addressing the question:

Should any state just be allowed to have a referendum to join another country territorially? 

Picture some province or territory in Taiwan that started a similar thing. Or a province in Canada starting a similar thing.

Edited Sunday at 07:02 PM by puporing

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, puporing said:

Again, this is the same talking points that people like Xijinping uses, now Donald Trump. This line of thought is being used to crush Ukraine who as a whole want independence from Russia and Putin.

Did you see the pictures? Ucraine had the independence, but in ucraine there is territory populated by Russians and they wanted belong to Russia, then a war started in 2014. Who's right? It's not so clearly . Would you like that people against your population? Seems hard

Edited Sunday at 07:04 PM by Breakingthewall

[puporing]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

Did you see the pictures? Ucraine had the independence, but in ucraine there is territory populated by Russians and they wanted belong to Russia, then a war started in 2014. Who's right? 

Clearly there's disagreement about that. Putin always want more territory to belong to them. By saying it always belonged to them.

I'm sorry but you're going nowhere with this. This is the same talking points Putin uses to justify the invasion. 

Edited Sunday at 07:05 PM by puporing

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, puporing said:

 

I'm sorry but you're going nowhere with this. This is the same talking points Putin uses to justify the invasion. 

He’s just reiterating Russian propaganda but being a little bit more sneaky about it.

[Breakingthewall]

8 minutes ago, puporing said:

Clearly there's disagreement about that. Putin always want more territory to belong to them. By saying it always belonged to them.

I'm sorry but you're going nowhere with this. This is the same talking points Putin uses to justify the invasion. 

Yes of course that Putin used that arguments because those areas are extremely important due resources and strategically over all Crimea. EEUU supported Ukraine against Russia knowing the result, a war. That doesn't mean that Putin wants all Europe, only this area with Russian population who wants joining Russia. It's a local conflict , who's right? Maybe Ukraine I don't know, but it's not so clear, they really wanted to joining Russia, because the Ukrainian are very aggressive, try to invesigate deep, see documentaries, it's not so white and black. It's a big shit like Taiwan. What do you want in Taiwan? Another war against a huge power? That's stupid, it's death

Edited Sunday at 07:12 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

He’s just reiterating Russian propaganda but being a little bit more sneaky about it.

Tell me one thing that's not correct in everything that I said. Facts, not emotions. I'm trying to understand, I don't like dictators, but I like less who make business with war

Edited Sunday at 07:18 PM by Breakingthewall

[zazen]

@puporing  Maybe you or anyone else on this forum can answer the question below:

Explain to me the path to defeating Russia and what does it look like? 

The thing with the whole “peace through strength ” slogan is that you have to have strength in the first place. So someone tell me the strengths of the West against Russia in the context of the Ukraine war?

I’ll wait forever and am open to changing my mind.

5 hours ago, zazen said:

@PurpleTree Whats the strategy against Russia broski? Do you think Europe can take on Russia? If so how, when Russia outproduces not just Europe but Europe + the US in artillery, shells and tanks?

The best Europe can do is end the war and regain it strength and autonomy over time. Europe needs to operate like an employee who wants to become an entrepreneur - use the stability of your job whilst building your business on the side. Once the business is doing well, leave the job. The rhetoric I'm seeing about Europe atm about it going at it alone is suicidal. It can't abandon its source of stability (US protection and deterrence) to chart its own course against Russia. That's like leaving a secure job without even having your first customer for your business.

Europe should end this war, turn on Russian gas pipelines for cheap energy, and regain power while building something stronger in the background to extricate itself out of both Russian and US dependence. But this current war is lost, that's the reality and red pill most Westerners are refusing to face, at their own peril.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 07:22 PM by zazen

[puporing]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

those areas are extremely important due resources and strategically over all Crimea

Well you just answered my question, that it was hardly done in "Good faith".

And I will refer you to this for the views on this "referendum": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#:~:text=According to the Gallup's survey,families%2C while 5.5% disagree.

Quote

UN On March 15, the United Nations Security Council voted 13–1 (with one abstention: China) to condemn the referendum, but Russia vetoed the draft resolution.[151] On April 16, Assistant Secretary-General for Human Rights Ivan Šimonović has briefed the Security Council on the situation in Ukraine, and turning to his March 21 to 22 visit to Crimea he said "Media manipulation significantly contributed to a climate of fear and insecurity in the period preceding the referendum, and the presence of paramilitary and so-called self-defence groups, as well as soldiers in uniform but without insignia, was not conducive to an environment in which voters could freely exercise their right to hold opinions and the right to freedom of expression".[152]

Organizing and holding the referendum on Crimea's accession to Russia was illegal under the Constitution of Ukraine.

territorial changes can only be approved via a referendum where all the citizens of Ukraine are allowed to vote, including those that do not reside in Crimea.

A Russian journalist claimed that she was allowed to vote even after admitting she was a Russian citizen with only a temporary one-year permit to live in Crimea.[108] "According to all the laws, this is illegal," she said in one interview. "I am a foreign citizen. How can I decide the destiny of the Crimean Autonomous Republic of Ukraine?"[

There were a few reports of people confiscating identification documents before the voting day. Simferopol city administration confirmed these claims and declared these actions unlawful.

Former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko alleged Russian coercion in allowing the referendum and that the international community should not allow it to happen.

European Union – All 28 member states of the European Union believe the separation of the Crimea from Ukraine to be unacceptable under international law.[148]

The European Parliament rejected the referendum on independence in Crimea, which they saw as manipulated and contrary to international and Ukrainian law.[149]

 

Edited Sunday at 07:22 PM by puporing

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, zazen said:

Explain to me the path to defeating Russia and what does it look like? 

Better let's try to understand what would happen if Russia falls and gets balcanized. Probably the apocalypse. We don't want defeat Russia, we want a world in peace. The Americans are extremely aggressive, they don't want to share, this has to change, and it's changing.

[puporing]

13 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

What do you want in Taiwan? Another war against a huge power? That's stupid, it's death

They should have a say in their independence (as a country), not as some state within it.

Edited Sunday at 07:25 PM by puporing

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, puporing said:

Well you just answered my question, that it was hardly done in "Good faith".

And I will refer you to this for the views on this "referendum": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#:~:text=According to the Gallup's survey,families%2C while 5.5% disagree.

 

70% of the population are Russian, then, thinking by logic, what would happen in case of a referendum? Anyone could say anything, but in those cases logic is the only way

[puporing]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

70% of the population are Russian, then, thinking by logic, what would happen in case of a referendum? Anyone could say anything, but in those cases logic is the only way

Yes but you are talking about territory transfer. There're international laws that govern that. 

Even if it's true that 100% of Crimean population wanted it, there're still international and constitutional laws that everyone else is abiding by.

Those Crimeans should just immigrate.

Edited Sunday at 07:28 PM by puporing

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, puporing said:

They should have a say in their independence (as a country), not as some state within it.

Taiwan is china, like hong Kong. It's a independent country due the colonialism, china is a millenary civilization, maybe they don't want to accept the dictates of foreign colonialist powers. But this is only an opinion. The thing is, it's a good idea another war?

[puporing]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Taiwan is china, like hong Kong. It's a independent country due the colonialism, china is a millenary civilization, maybe they don't want to accept the dictates of foreign colonialist powers. But this is only an opinion. The thing is, it's a good idea another war?

Taiwain doesn't think it's China, neither does HK.

You're just bowing down to dictatorship regimes. That's all you're doing.. by succumbing to their so called "supreme power".

Edited Sunday at 07:30 PM by puporing

[PurpleTree]

9 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Tell me one thing that's not correct in everything that I said. Facts, not emotions. I'm trying to understand, I don't like dictators, but I like less who make business with war

You’re just looking at it from the Russian perspective. Which is ok. But for me the Russian perspective kind of died when they first annexed Crimea and then attacked Ukraine in a brutal war. Killing women and children (and men) plunging Europe into the biggest war since ww2. Before Russia invaded i was actually open to their perspective and more anti NATO. And now i think Putin Russia has to be stopped.

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, puporing said:

Yes but you are talking about territory transfer. There're international laws that govern that. 

Even if it's true that 100% of Crimean population wanted it, there're still international and constitutional laws that everyone else is abiding by.

Those Crimeans should just immigrate.

Maybe you are right, maybe not, I don't know, but it's not so clear like they show. It's a local conflict, difficult to understand and knowing who's right 

 

1 minute ago, puporing said:

Taiwain doesn't think it's China.

You're just bowing down to dictatorship regimes. That's all you're doing.. by succumbing to their so called "supreme power".

No, I only see the situation. Taiwan belong to china from thousands of years, china is a huge power, china sees Taiwan as an humiliation to their sovereignty, then, let's fight against china? Ok, that's an option