WATCH: Trump argues with Zelenskyy in Oval Office

[PurpleTree]

I‘m checking his subreddit and it’s a mess. In a good way.

[zazen]

51 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Trump's ways are a shame since he represents the country that supported and pushed Ukraine into this war. According to him, it is not his problem since it was Biden, not him. This defines the problem of democracies: inconstancy, bipolarity, weakness.

but the reality is that they must end a war that is impossible to win. The Biden administration, through blinken, was pushing to lower the draft age to 18. It all sounds very nice and heroic from the outside, but when they force 18-year-olds to go to the slaughterhouse for nationalist reasons, it is best to stay away. The war has been lost because it is impossible to win. If you put too much pressure on Russia, it could destroy kyiv without resorting to atomic weapons in a week. It is impossible to win, so what other option is there? continue with the deaths? 

Pressuring Russia was a catastrophic mistake for Ukraine, it was obvious from the beginning. but the Ukrainians were drunk with nationalism. For reasons of pride and historical hatred they have destroyed their country. What is the solution, total destruction? Or attack Russia and make them surrender? Be careful with the bear, it's so obvious that it's incredible that this war happened 

Well said. It’s delusion at its best. It’s best to concede now than prolong this war and lose more, not just land but lives. It’s not a simple as throw money at the problem situation - the West have much higher military expenditures yet Russia took a fifth of Ukraine.

We can’t print an industrial base or cheap energy to fuel it - these take time to build. US is also disinterested in prolonging the war. The best bet would be for a end, and then for Europe to soul search for its backbone.

Europe needs to build its strength and independence in the background so it can hold its own and not need to depend on a United States that wants to focus on domestic issues and China going forward - which didn’t just begin with Trump but started since Obama, Trump is just speed running things.

The US simply doesn’t care because it got what it wanted. It successfully severed Europe from affordable Russian energy, mysteriously blew up Nord Stream under suspicious circumstances that mainstream media abandoned investigating, and forced their "allies" to purchase overpriced US gas.

They extracted billions more in NATO military spending from their vassal states, gutted EU economic competitiveness – especially Germany's industrial base which relied on cheap Russian energy - and now are extorting Ukraines weak position by exploiting it mineral wealth for US corporate vultures.

They posture about the aid given as if their empire hasn’t  greatly benefitted from what is actually an imperial investment. Then ask Zelensky to thank them for it. The only objective their game didn’t achieve is to defeat Russia or severely weaken it - though Russia is weaker, but not to the extent they hoped - which is why they are changing strategy to partner with Russia to counter China next.

 

Edited Sunday at 12:22 PM by zazen

[Breakingthewall]

18 minutes ago, zazen said:

Well said. It’s delusion at its best. It’s best to concede now than prolong this war and lose more, not just land but lives. It’s not a simple as throw money at the problem situation - the West have much higher military expenditures yet Russia took a fifth of Ukraine.

We can’t print an industrial base or cheap energy to fuel it - these take time to build. US is also disinterested in prolonging the war. The best bet would be for a end, and then for Europe to soul search for its backbone.

Europe needs to build its strength and independence in the background so it can hold its own and not need to depend on a United States that wants to focus on domestic issues and China going forward - which didn’t just begin with Trump but started since Obama, Trump is just speed running things.

The US simply doesn’t care because it got what it wanted. It successfully severed Europe from affordable Russian energy, mysteriously blew up Nord Stream under suspicious circumstances that mainstream media abandoned investigating, and forced their "allies" to purchase overpriced US gas.

They extracted billions more in NATO military spending from their vassal states, gutted EU economic competitiveness – especially Germany's industrial base which relied on cheap Russian energy - and now are extorting Ukraines weak position by exploiting it mineral wealth for US corporate vultures.

They posture about the aid given as if their empire hasn’t  greatly benefitted from what is actually an imperial investment. Then ask Zelensky to thank them for it. The only objective their game didn’t achieve is to defeat Russia or severely weaken it - though Russia is weaker, but not to the extent they hoped - which is why they are changing strategy to partner with Russia to counter China next.

 

Why do European leaders seem not to realize this? How is it possible that Germany collaborated in its own ruin? I suppose that in high political circles everyone knows exactly what has happened and why. I suppose everyone thought that Russia would go down with the sanctions, and seeing its plans fail, the US and the European Union have reacted differently. What is inexplicable is the collaboration of Germany, which is in recession and in a historic political crisis caused by this war.

[PurpleTree]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Why do European leaders seem not to realize this? How is it possible that Germany collaborated in its own ruin? I suppose that in high political circles everyone knows exactly what has happened and why. I suppose everyone thought that Russia would go down with the sanctions, and seeing its plans fail, the US and the European Union have reacted differently. What is inexplicable is the collaboration of Germany, which is in recession and in a historic political crisis caused by this war.

It‘s not true stop lying kid.

Russia is attacking Europe in hybrid warfare and propaganda and is supporting far right parties in Europe.
And just invaded Ukraine and is testing Europe and NATO

That’s mostly why Europeans support Ukraine.

And the political crisis in Germany isn’t because of this war. It’s mostly because of immigration.

[zazen]

44 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Why do European leaders seem not to realize this? How is it possible that Germany collaborated in its own ruin? I suppose that in high political circles everyone knows exactly what has happened and why. I suppose everyone thought that Russia would go down with the sanctions, and seeing its plans fail, the US and the European Union have reacted differently. What is inexplicable is the collaboration of Germany, which is in recession and in a historic political crisis caused by this war.

Europe and Israel share the same fundamental delusion - a blindness to reality born from US backing that has allowed them to operate without consequences for decades. Israel at least had some autonomy due to their influence within US, despite them using that autonomy for vile purposes.

Outsourcing industry makes you a dependent, but outsourcing your own security and ability to defend yourself makes you a vassal (Israel being a odd exception). That's the issue with Europe. A nation without industry is weakened, but a nation without security is owned. In outsourcing industry you lose wealth, in outsourcing security you lose autonomy. US outsourced labor, but Europe outsourced power.

Europe’s blindness to reality is a direct result of its outsourced security, which led to outsourced sovereignty, which led to outsourced thinking and a inability to lead. They aren't comfortable leading because for the longest time they've asked how high to jump, when asked by the US - not whether they should jump in the first place. Beyond that - they have a self-destructive idealism (green policies and throttling their tech industry), performative moral grand standing and lack of dynamism due to entrenched interests and bureaucracy. 

Basically, cultural and institutional inertia from a boomer class used to and clinging to a old world of comfort that US security provided them, but that blinded them in the process.

 

[zazen]

@PurpleTree Whats the strategy against Russia broski? Do you think Europe can take on Russia? If so how, when Russia outproduces not just Europe but Europe + the US in artillery, shells and tanks?

The best Europe can do is end the war and regain it strength and autonomy over time. Europe needs to operate like an employee who wants to become an entrepreneur - use the stability of your job whilst building your business on the side. Once the business is doing well, leave the job. The rhetoric I'm seeing about Europe atm about it going at it alone is suicidal. It can't abandon its source of stability (US protection and deterrence) to chart its own course against Russia. That's like leaving a secure job without even having your first customer for your business.

Europe should end this war, turn on Russian gas pipelines for cheap energy, and regain power while building something stronger in the background to extricate itself out of both Russian and US dependence. But this current war is lost, that's the reality and red pill most Westerners are refusing to face, at their own peril.

 

Edited Sunday at 01:51 PM by zazen

[Breakingthewall]

11 minutes ago, zazen said:

Europe’s blindness to reality is a direct result of its outsourced security

Do you really think that the German government did not understand the US strategy? if it is obvious. For Germany, the Nord Stream was essential, why do they collaborate with those who destroyed it and bankrupted their industry? It is truly incomprehensible. I understand the attitude of France and UK, displaced by Russia and China in Africa, although their attitude is pathetic since it is that of a bully who does not dare to fight, it is ridiculous. but Germany? It seems that they want to immolate themselves to purge their Nazi past. It also seems that they have already inmolate themselves enough

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

And the political crisis in Germany isn’t because of this war. It’s mostly because of immigration.

Do you know that Germany is in recession and companies that are more than a century old are closing every day? Do you know that this is because of the destruction of the Nord Stream, which was the work of the CIA? Do you know that the gas that Germany consumes is American, much more expensive, and that this is the cause of its crisis? everyone knows this, if you don't know these things you can't have a clear opinion of what is happening in world politics. Check in Google, chatgpt, etc. Try to know the data, then make an opinion.

[Davino]

On 1/3/2025 at 5:41 AM, Joshe said:

 

What an intellectual and independent thinker Lex showed to be, lmao.

Trump is a bully and manipulator. That's what we saw here. He's the type of guy that would break your leg and sell you a cheap solution that won't work anyways.

[Ishanga]

Watched the exchange, its unfortunate for all parties that it went in that Direction, but it seems Ukraine sees the US and Canada and other countries as Banks, they just want more from Us to continue the way things are which is disempowering for all of the Ukraine and Russia and all of Us, war hurts all of Us...

If the USA was in Ukraine to access its mineral deposits, US companies, ppl, workers, equipment and investment, that is the security guarantee, if Russia attacked and killed or destroyed US stuff then what do You think would happen?? This is not about Trump, those that say those things just hate Trump and are too identified with that Hate, it blinds them.. Its about stopping the war, Putin won't challenge the US when they are this way, if they have an investment there they will protect it, and Putin won't challenge that...simple stuff!  

Ukraine is done now...

[Rafael Thundercat]

Moderators can send this one to Entertainment in case it dont fit well the dialogue. But I feel a good comedy is good sometimes. Lets not "Cancel Comedy" 

 

[puporing]

1 hour ago, Ishanga said:

Watched the exchange, its unfortunate for all parties that it went in that Direction, but it seems Ukraine sees the US and Canada and other countries as Banks, they just want more from Us to continue the way things are which is disempowering for all of the Ukraine and Russia and all of Us, war hurts all of Us...

If the USA was in Ukraine to access its mineral deposits, US companies, ppl, workers, equipment and investment, that is the security guarantee, if Russia attacked and killed or destroyed US stuff then what do You think would happen?? This is not about Trump, those that say those things just hate Trump and are too identified with that Hate, it blinds them.. Its about stopping the war, Putin won't challenge the US when they are this way, if they have an investment there they will protect it, and Putin won't challenge that...simple stuff!  

Ukraine is done now...

Wrong. You are not even close to the truth.

Ukraine is fighting the fight for all of us. 

Edited Sunday at 04:50 PM by puporing

[Ero]

Europe trynna scrape a peace deal but you already know it’s gonna get shut down by Trump unless he gets his neo-colonial deal.

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Ishanga said:

If the USA was in Ukraine to access its mineral deposits, US companies, ppl, workers, equipment and investment, that is the security guarantee, if Russia attacked and killed or destroyed US stuff then what do You think would happen?? This is not about Trump, those that say those things just hate Trump and are too identified with that Hate, it blinds them.. Its about stopping the war, Putin won't challenge the US when they are this way, if they have an investment there they will protect it, and Putin won't challenge that...simple stuff!  

Very true. It's like a trojan horse sneaking in a quasi-security guarantee without outright saying it and putting Russia on high alert. If the US had interests there, they would naturally be invested in Ukraine and want to protect those interests.  That's probably the best Ukraine could have asked for at this point. On the other hand I'm sure Russia wouldn't be happy with a heavy US presence on its border due to how the US can just flip when it suits them. There has to be some sort of neutral peace keeping forces (non-Nato/Western), possibly Chinese, African, Latin American.

4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Do you really think that the German government did not understand the US strategy? if it is obvious. For Germany, the Nord Stream was essential, why do they collaborate with those who destroyed it and bankrupted their industry? It is truly incomprehensible. I understand the attitude of France and UK, displaced by Russia and China in Africa, although their attitude is pathetic since it is that of a bully who does not dare to fight, it is ridiculous. but Germany? It seems that they want to immolate themselves to purge their Nazi past. It also seems that they have already inmolate themselves enough

They definitely seem to want to atone for their Nazi past. It's why there seems to be a domestic consensus against militarism. They prefer the stability of being integrated into a Western security umbrella led by NATO and the US. They've been conditioned for submission in order to never be a threat again. Post WW2 Germany was rebuilt under strict US oversight which still exists today. Outside of the US the biggest base is in Germany. They have 35k US troops in Germany - the second largest presence of US troops comparatively is in Italy (12k) and UK (10k). So 3x the amount on German soil which subordinates them to a much larger degree. 

 They've never been allowed to operate as a fully sovereign power. Their political and security apparatus is deeply intertwined with the US - their intelligence agencies, military, and foreign policy are embedded within NATO and US led institutions. When the US says jump, Germany doesn’t even ask if they should, but how high.

Their ruling coalition is also influenced by Green Party idealism. They're ideologically corrupted. They shutdown Germany’s last nuclear plants in 2023 - in the middle of a energy crisis and war! How stupid can one be. This is the ideological rot we speak of and much of the right speak of when they critique lefty progressives.  They have no sense and saw the war as a tool to force their climate policies through.  

''Germany’s hawkish Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock insisted NATO must “stand with Ukraine as long as they need us”, pledging military support “no matter what my German voters think”.

Edited Sunday at 05:54 PM by zazen

[Ishanga]

57 minutes ago, puporing said:

Wrong. You are not even close to the truth.

Ukraine is fighting the fight for all of us. 

No they are not, this idea that if their democracy, if you want to call it that, fails that it fails everywhere is not true.. Democracy is already failing everywhere, all the systems we have in place have already failed, most of the masses are suffering in various ways, yes Canada is a rich and wealthy country but tons and tons of ppl are suffering, I see it everyday, its just different than in poorer countries, so all the systems, Political, Economic, Education, Military and such are already failing..

Why we are supporting Ukraine as much as we have, yes we have to support them but not in the Billions of $$ that we need here to fix our own problems, is beyond Me other than Canada has the largest Ukrainian community outside of Ukraine I believe... but the idea that we have to save them to save democracy is a fallacy!

[Breakingthewall]

19 minutes ago, zazen said:

Their ruling coalition is also influenced by Green Party idealism. They're ideologically corrupted. They shutdown Germany’s last nuclear plants in 2023 - in the middle of a energy crisis and war! How stupid can one be. This is the ideological rot we speak of and much of the right speak of when they critique lefty progressives.  They have no sense and saw the war as a tool to force their climate policies through.  

''Germany’s hawkish Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock insisted NATO must “stand with Ukraine as long as they need us”, pledging military support “no matter what my German voters think”.

Afterwards, people are very surprised that the extreme right triumphs. It seems like they do it on purpose. Germany is already tired of having a guilt complex and being a puppet and a second-rate country, when due to its industrial power it should lead. 

Angela Merkel opened the doors to the Syrians, and now they have radical Islam on their streets. Sholtz knelt before the US and now they have a recession. Germany's logical ally is Russia, with its enormous energy resources. The US is not their friend, it is their master and their competitor, and the Germans are realizing it. 

[puporing]

15 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

No they are not, this idea that if their democracy, if you want to call it that, fails that it fails everywhere is not true.. Democracy is already failing everywhere, all the systems we have in place have already failed, most of the masses are suffering in various ways, yes Canada is a rich and wealthy country but tons and tons of ppl are suffering, I see it everyday, its just different than in poorer countries, so all the systems, Political, Economic, Education, Military and such are already failing..

Why we are supporting Ukraine as much as we have, yes we have to support them but not in the Billions of $$ that we need here to fix our own problems, is beyond Me other than Canada has the largest Ukrainian community outside of Ukraine I believe... but the idea that we have to save them to save democracy is a fallacy!

You're the fallacy and propagandist. You seem to be working for Putin.

You wouldn't even have a country left if Ukraine and allies wasn't still fighting.

What you will have is Putin's regime, it will be even worse than Trump's current one. Do some research before you start shooting down democratic nations. 

--

And if you fundamentally agree with Putin's regime, well, you have really lost your mind and I don't think there's an easy way to come back from that.

Edited Sunday at 06:02 PM by puporing

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, puporing said:

Wrong. You are not even close to the truth.

Ukraine is fighting the fight for all of us. 

Ukraine has been scammed. manipulative powers have used their nationalist sentiment to create this situation, now it is a spoil that the two powers are going to share. In the distribution negotiations, Ukraine is not invited. I feel sorry for them, but it was too obvious from the beginning. What were they thinking of getting? In Zelensky's electoral program is recovering Crimea, where 70% of the population is Russian, they were bombing the Russian population in dombass since the euro maidan. They have been promoting hostility with Russia for 8 years, for what? Who could have this idea? a madman? It is very difficult to understand, human stupidity is very deep 

And I'm not with one part against another part, I just try to understand objectively the facts, I prefer democracy, etc, but it's not about preferences it's about facts

Edited Sunday at 06:11 PM by Breakingthewall

[puporing]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Ukraine has been scammed. manipulative powers have used their nationalist sentiment to create this situation, now it is a spoil that the two powers are going to share. In the distribution negotiations, Ukraine is not invited. I feel sorry for them, but it was too obvious from the beginning. What were they thinking of getting? In Zelensky's electoral program is recovering Crimea, where 70% of the population is Russian, they were bombing the Russian population in dombass since the euro maidan. They have been promoting hostility with Russia for 8 years, for what? Who could have this idea? a madman? It is very difficult to understand, human stupidity is very deep

The opposition to Putin is most likely the result of his own long history of murdering all of his opponents, elections meddling, etc. Truth finds its way out.

Edited Sunday at 06:11 PM by puporing

[Breakingthewall]

11 minutes ago, puporing said:

The opposition to Putin is most likely the result of his own long history of murdering all of his opponents, elections meddling, etc. Truth finds its way out.

Then, as Putin is evil in my opinion, let's promote hostility with my neighbor who has nuclear power to destroy the world and a war tradition that kept the entire West in check for decades. It seems like a bad idea if what you want is to live

Edited Sunday at 06:20 PM by Breakingthewall