They are giving Luigi the death penalty

[puporing]

Laws are not so straightforward, what is considered "criminal" is dependent on the consciousness of the people at the time. People have to actually decide things like "degrees of seriousness", and this changes with the collective's consciousness.

Because to me a CEO causing death through cost cutting when they didn't have to is just as bad as a murderer, but the general public/lawmakers may not agree with this yet. So at this time such CEOs/decisionmakers, don't face nearly as bad of consequences.

Edited 13 hours ago by puporing

[The Crocodile]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is not really about the death penalty, this is about something much more important: the lack of flexibility of your mind.

Dude, your whole thing is that you want to increase rigidness and strictness. That's literally the opposite.

[Terell Kirby]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The meta thing that bothers me is that when I try to challenge or poke the leftist paradigm which many here subscribe to, it is resisted and refused with such confidence and closedness.

I’m glad you pointed this out-it’s a real struggle for some of us to let go. This is especially the case for me when you see MAGA fascism come out on top as they did in the election. Leftists, liberals and progressives are desperately needing something to hold onto.

Yet I realize truth and acceptance of reality as is requires letting go of the need to find something to grip as progressive ideals are spat on by the masses. There is wisdom in that; most of the pushback you get is coming from a resistance to the emotional labor required to be wise. I’ve struggled with it, I’m sure others have as well.

[puporing]

No no this isn't about not being flexible, this is a matter of one having more clarity than another and not budging. 

I could just as easily say your mind is the one not flexible enough,. See the problem? 

It's like you are arguing with someone who scored 99% on a calculus exam and you scored 80% and trying to tell them your answers are more correct. 

But if you truly believe that the test scores are inaccurate, then yeah, that's the end of dialogue. I can't even blame you.

Edited 12 hours ago by puporing

[cetus]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

4 hours ago, Something Funny said:

you've said, but it was something along the lines of you practicing not wishing death even on horrible people like Putin or Trump.

Leo- Yes, that's a great spiritual exercise to do.

@Something Funny@Leo Gura Don't allow their karma to become your karma.

Edited 12 hours ago by cetus

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The meta thing that bothers me is that when I try to challenge or poke the leftist paradigm which many here subscribe to, it is resisted and refused with such confidence and closedness.

Why would they change their perspective to yours? 

There are different ways to achieve the same thing. If you want a sense of justice, there are usually better ways of getting it IMO. Although, I don't think I would abolish the death penalty altogether. 

Look at the pros and cons:

Maybe the "leftists" have weighed the pros and cons and just logically concluded it doesn't make sense. You can arrive at that position without being a leftist. 

What's insane is they still have firing squads. There's a guy who just chose to be executed by a firing squad. I mean, wtf? The fact that the state would accommodate that is insane. Many people probably wish it was televised for entertainment. Like in the old days when people would cheer at hangings. 

Edited 12 hours ago by Joshe

[Elliott]

Compassion breeds trust in society, hate does the opposite. Prison is about correction and reform, not punishment.

[Joshe]

2 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Compassion breeds trust in society, hate does the opposite. Prison is about correction and reform, not punishment.

Right. It just seems like the healthy thing to do. 

[Leo Gura]

50 minutes ago, The Crocodile said:

Dude, your whole thing is that you want to increase rigidness and strictness. That's literally the opposite.

Open your mind to the value of strictness.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The meta thing that bothers me is that when I try to challenge or poke the leftist paradigm which many here subscribe to, it is resisted and refused with such confidence and closedness.

This is not in the spirit of this work and it will keep you from reaching the higher levels of understanding.

This is not really about the death penalty, this is about something much more important: the lack of flexibility of your mind.

You're saying that I'm closed up in my mind about the death penalty (and also that my paradigm is a run-of-the-mill leftist paradigm, when it isn't... but I digress on that point).

But I do see the value of the death penalty in societal structures that don't have the resources to deal with harmful behaviors a different way. So, I was mentally flexible enough to concede your point within certain contexts... but you have yet to be mentally flexible enough to concede anything to my perspective.

So, as a concession to your perspective on the death penalty... if we were in a tribe and someone starts acting up and making the rest of the tribe less safe... toss that mf-er off a cliff! That's the cleanest and most effective solution that that infrastructure allows for. And it's taken out of practicality and not from a space of punishment or revenge.

But if you have some kind of idea that the death penalty increases the levels of safety and harmony in society (which is the core function of the justice system in the first place) then you're just incorrect.

There's no evidence that the death penalty deters people from committing crimes more than run of the mill prison sentences. And there's no evidence that the death penalty makes for a safer and more harmonious society either.

In fact, the most safe and harmonious places in the world tend to be places that have already abolished the death penalty.

No one who decides to murder when there's no death penalty will be deterred by the death penalty being added. If a life-sentence doesn't deter someone from murder... a death-sentence certainly wouldn't either.

But if you have evidence that shows that the death penalty makes the society more harmonious and safer, then please show it... and I will consider it.

But there are much more effective means of preventing crime and increasing societal safety and harmony that actually have very little to do with what goes on in the prison system.

Though of course, it's important to have consequences for harmful actions and a place where you can sequester away people who are threats to societal harmony and safety... so there does need to be a place to house both violent and system-eroding criminals away from regular society.

But prisons and punishments don't produce a just society. They're just exile stations for people who break laws... and ideally they become exile stations only for people who truly upend the social order.

But this thought of being "tough on crime" as a deterrent for crime really neglects that ACTUAL levers of power we have over the macrocosmic crime patterns.... which have a lot more to do with "lax" values like softness, compassion, and connection than with punishment and prison.

And the harsher we are as a society, the more it begets more trauma... and therefore more crime.

It's like cutting off the head of the hydra... and having 3 more grow in its place.

So, any rigorous person who has an actual commitment to justice in its exalted expression will not be focusing on making the punishments harsher.

That's like trying to cure a sickness by punishing and shaming the fever... as opposed to addressing the root cause.

Edited 12 hours ago by Emerald

[Emerald]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Open your mind to the value of strictness.

Strictness is incredibly valuable as the other side of compassion and mercy. 

And without adequate strictness, chaos will consume the society.

But there are wise and unwise ways to be strict... and the death penalty and the punishment-as-crime-solution-paradigm are examples of that.

[Letho]

Saying the death penalty is medieval is like saying euthanasia is medieval. 

Clearly the latter is an upgrade and the former is a godsend when you compare it with spending your life in prison. 

I don't know enough about the case to comment about the justice of it extrinsically, however intrinsically, its better for everyone involved except people that don't understand that its better than being butt raped or someone's bitch, which I see Luigi becoming, he's certainly not the kind to receive the positive attention he gets from obsessives following the case.

 

[Quader]

The death penalty can play 2 ways: I can afford to delegate resources to provide asylum for the people from criminals by sequestering them or I cant afford it. 

If you're talking about providing food for a murderer or your mum you're not going to be privy to keep them around. 

The truth is proponents of the death sentence are unable to take the spider into the jar and they just crush it. It's just a shame and in cases of wrongful conviction it is a tragedy. But a preventable one, one with a human response that isnt as impulsive. 

The spider in this case is a lion but the priviledge of life can be afforded if the resources are at hand. 

Edited 11 hours ago by Quader

[Elliott]

 

https://www.ojp.gov › ncjrs › virtual-library › abstracts › capital...

"Capital Punishment or Life Imprisonment? Some Cost Considera…

Florida has estimated that the true cost of each execution is approximately $3.2 million, or approximately 6 times what it would cost to keep the person in prison for life. "

[Frylock]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but the lack of death penalty in Europe makes sense because they don't have cultures so entrenched in guns and violence. America systemically loves its guns, and any idiot at any time can pop off and kill someone. The punishment for that is death.

Yes, western European countries have murders and guns, but not at the same rate as the United States. Guns just make it easier to commit violent crimes, and thus the penalties are harsher.

[Lyubov]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The meta thing that bothers me is that when I try to challenge or poke the leftist paradigm which many here subscribe to, it is resisted and refused with such confidence and closedness.

This is not in the spirit of this work and it will keep you from reaching the higher levels of understanding.

This is not really about the death penalty, this is about something much more important: the lack of flexibility of your mind.

It’s difficult to have a productive discussion on left criticisms usually because a lot of contrarian and dishonest Trumpist brain rot capitalizes on this. Self reflection of the left is something that should only take place and be open to people on this level of development, otherwise lower stage right wing weaponize it. 

[Raze]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The meta thing that bothers me is that when I try to challenge or poke the leftist paradigm which many here subscribe to, it is resisted and refused with such confidence and closedness.

This is not in the spirit of this work and it will keep you from reaching the higher levels of understanding.

This is not really about the death penalty, this is about something much more important: the lack of flexibility of your mind.

No one is saying that all humans have equal survival value. Obviously that is not true.

But the institutions like the justice system is supposed to move away from the dog eat dog world to create a more cohesive social system, which actually has better survival value.

[Nemra]

Punishing the murderer could also prevent the deaths of many others.

But it's also good to prevent the people, especially murderers, from having access to guns, etc., so that they have a hard time doing harm, although it won't stop them, but at least they won't have too much power.

For example, the child will probably harm herself/himself regardless of the toy you give, but the more dangerous the toy is, the more harm the child could do to herself/himself. So, the parents have to prevent those harmful actions.

The example isn't quite accurate for this murderer issue because the murderer is an adult who intends to kill, but it shows that there also needs to be a better system that prevents those harmful things from happening without an immediate harsh punishment for every case.

Edited 2 hours ago by Nemra

[zazen]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's a strawman which comes from a lack of willingness to step outside the liberal perspective.

You think I get entertainment from the death penalty?? That's not a serious intellectual engagment with my position.

The liberal minded view it as if people take glee in punishing criminals, when its in fact the criminal that takes glee in punishing others.

The death penalty isn't punishment but banishment - no one exists to suffer punishment. Possibly why its even called death penalty, not death punishment - because it is a final solution to eradicate the irredeemable. 

This is where your cancer cell metaphor perfectly captures the distinction. Cancer cells are already dead. Likewise, the irredeemable are already dead inside with no soul left to be invigorated or ''rehabilitated''. Society isn't some rehab therapy circle jerk. Resources spent on attempting futile rehabilitation are being diverted away from root causes of criminality itself.

The death penalty is a form of social chemotherapy targeting the most malignant irredeemable threats to society. It's doesn't deter those already far gone, because they don't fear death to even be deterred, but it removes the net drain of having to house them in prison which isn't free either. It can still deter those who have some sense of self preservation and wish to live.

Edited 4 hours ago by zazen

[Elliott]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

The liberal minded view it as if people take glee in punishing criminals, when its in fact the criminal that takes glee in punishing others.

The death penalty isn't punishment but banishment - no one exists to suffer punishment. Possibly why its even called death penalty, not death punishment - because it is a final solution to eradicate the irredeemable. 

This is where your cancer cell metaphor perfectly captures the distinction. Cancer cells are already dead. Likewise, the irredeemable are already dead inside with no soul left to be invigorated or ''rehabilitated''. Society isn't some rehab therapy circle jerk. Resources spent on attempting futile rehabilitation are being diverted away from root causes of criminality itself.

The death penalty is a form of social chemotherapy targeting the most malignant irredeemable threats to society. It's doesn't deter those already far gone, because they don't fear death to even be deterred, but it removes the net drain of having to house them in prison which isn't free either. It can still deter those who have some sense of self preservation and wish to live.

Death penalty costs 7x more than imprisoning someone for life.