They are giving Luigi the death penalty

[integral]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Laxness on murderers eventually leads to laxness on corruption, laxness on white collar crime, laxness on guys like Trump. It's a culture of laxness which allows corruption to run amok.

The people in power use there given strictness to cease more power.

This has never played out well in history. 

This wisdom is not aligned with the environment yet, its like the dream of communism. 

[integral]

its a really fine balancing act of being lax and strict and right now the pendulum is swinging to the lax, then it will come back until we find the optimal zoom. 

[Etherial Cat]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't buy that.

Sounds like a very dubious claim.

And the point is not deterance. The point is justice and a culture of strictness and consequence rather than laxness.

Laxness itself is the crime.

I also had no idea before, but this is what is taught in a lot of criminology course in law schools using scientific reasoning and studies.

I eventually got convinced and never looked back.

 

I would be happy to share the main ideas/points behind that in a further post if you are interested in reading and assessing the arguments made.

I just need to dig it up as I don't have everything in mind right now.

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

but this is what is taught in a lot of criminology course in law schools using scientific reasoning and studies.

Such people and such "science" is not to be trusted.

This is liberal dogma, not real science.

Of course liberals want to believe that laxness has no cost. This is one of core flaws of liberalism, it sees only upside to laxness.

Edited February 23 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, integral said:

The people in power use there given strictness to cease more power.

This is true, but that is corruption.

Strictness has to be applied without bias.

Strict laws applied selectively is actually a sloppy legal system. A truly strict legal system applies laws consistently to everyone.

27 minutes ago, integral said:

This has never played out well in history. 

Not true.

The military is strict, the police are strict. This works well in most cases. It only works badly when it is corrupted and unevenly applied. But strictness is a very important principle that applies in many areas of life, like when building an aircraft or a bridge -- it has to pass strict certification standards.

Edited February 23 by Leo Gura

[Something Funny]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is true, but that is corruption.

Strictness has to be applied without bias.

Strict laws applied selectively is actually a sloppy legal system. A truly strict legal system applies laws consistently to everyone.

So maybe we shouldn't have death penalty if our society is so corrupt? Maybe we should solve the corruption before deciding who deserves to be killed and who doesn't?

If Luigi is sentenced to death over this, there will be nothing just about it. It will be clearly done simply become he dared to kill a higher class person. There are people who murder others and get like 5 years in prison.

 

Also, there is a question of who gets to be the judge. In this case Luigi decided that he can be a judge and murder a corrupt CEO, clearly thinking that he deserves it. How is this different?

Just because the actual judges represent the system, doesn't mean that their judgement is inherently any more just or any wiser. They are still just regular humans.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

If Luigi is sentenced to death over this, there will be nothing just about it. It will be clearly done simply become he dared to kill a higher class person.

But there is a case to be made that assassination of important people like CEOs of public companies is legitamately a greater crime and harm to society than killing a nobody in a fit of rage. CEOs have a higher responsibility for serving shareholders and making companies function. It's fun to hate on CEOs, but most CEOs are just doing their job and keeping companies deliver goods and services to people who need them.

Luigi is basically a terrorist, not just a normal murderer. So it does make sense to make an example of him. The legal system does allow example-making for particularly heinous crimes.

Edited February 23 by Leo Gura

[Breathe]

Just now, Elliott said:

We have non profit insurance companies you can choose instead, you can just quit supporting bad companies with your wallet or job instead of waiting for magical politics.

Yep. Had one for years. Still expensive as fuck. I've been dealing with a serious health condition for 12 years.

 

Just now, aurum said:

1) If people are so over it, then why did the majority vote for Republicans who would love nothing more than to privatize all healthcare?

2) You can have rage at the healthcare system without making Luigi into some kind of hero

Expected behavior or not, it’s still toxic. Shooting CEOs is not a solution. But people just want to see blood.

There are different types of people aren't there? The kind that don't want to pay taxes to help others. The kind that have been brainwashed into believing that social programs are a bad thing. The kind that don't want dems to take their guns. Etc.

You can't expect everyone to be aware of their own biases or blind spots or to have emotional intelligence. We live in an unconscious society riddled with propaganda that values profits over people.

I'm not saying anything is right or wrong.

All I am saying is that I understand because of where our society is at right now.

 

Just now, Elliott said:

People have lost their minds, by supporting Luigi you KNOW you are encouraging other young people to ruin their lives. 

Just now, Elliott said:

Not everyone, but a vast amount of people, and most people continue buying united health type insurance.

No, they're literally not for profit and member owned companies.

Blue Shield of California

https://www.blueshieldca.com › en › home › about-blue-shield

About Blue Shield | Blue Shield of CA

Blue Shield of California, an independent member of the Blue Shield Association, is a nonprofit health plan dedicated to providing Californians with access to high-quality health care at an …

 

 

I don't support Luigi. Like I said, I understand the anger and frustration that comes with dealing with health issues and the exploitation by the healthcare system.

Blue Shield of CA was my provider from 2015 to 2023 (the years that I was able to afford it). Thank god my work pays for my insurance now. In 2023 I was paying over $600 per month for mid grade health coverage. I was an expensive buyer. Even they denied me a brain scan when I was barely able to function. I am very lucky to be alive.

[Something Funny]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

harm to society than killing a nobody in a fit of rage.

To society or to status quo and people in power?

If some kind of social revolution happened tomorrow, Trump and Elon and all those CEOs would be hanged. And something tells me that people would have used the same "harm to society" argument. Would killing them be okay then? Today, it's not okay, but tomorrow it would be fine. Why? Did something about Trump or Elon change? No. The group in power changed. So now different things are considered "harmful to society".

In middle ages, you would be considered harmful to society for the stuff you teach, and you would be hanged or burned alive.

Would you be defending death penalty then?

[puporing]

Luigi is to me a symptom of the cracks starting to bulk. Whether or not he gets severe punishment, this overall symptom (as demonstrated by his supporters) that the healthcare system among other things, the way that it is running in America is terribly dysfunctional and causing a lot of suffering. People didn't immediately denounce him and rather went to his support not because they don't understand murder is inherently unjustified, but that they feel that there is no clear alternative as a normal citizen to do anything about the health care system. They're doomed if the republicans are in power, and they're doomed if the democrats are in power. 

To me if I was a US citizen and understand that I could be bankrupt any day due to a health issue, I'd prob try very hard to immigrate and leave that country.

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

To society or to status quo and people in power?

How can you distinguish them? They obvious work together.

Society is by definition always run by powerful and elite people.

Quote

If some kind of social revolution happened tomorrow, Trump and Elon and all those CEOs would be hanged.

Yeah, but don't assume that would be a net good. Be careful what you wish for.

Quote

And something tells me that people would have used the same "harm to society" argument. Would killing them be okay then?

Obviously not since the state has a monoploy on murder.

Quote

In middle ages, you would be considered harmful to society for the stuff you teach, and you would be hanged or burned alive.

Would you be defending death penalty then?

Death penalty for political assasination vs teaching is night and day.

Do you want to live in the Middle Ages?

Edited February 23 by Leo Gura

[PurpleTree]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Maybe the issue is that you're assuming its backwards when it isn't.

Who’s to say that?

Is slavery backwards? I’d say yea that’s why it was abolished. Same with death penalty.

 

 

[Something Funny]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How can you distinguish them? They obvious work together.

Society is by definition always run by powerful and elite people.

You could try to evaluate what would be better for humanity in a long term. And who is to say, maybe what Luigi did will be a net positive thing eventually. Are you able to predict the end result of everything that's happening?

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah, but don't assume that would be a net good. Be careful what you wish for.

Quote

I am not. I don't think you understood me correctly. I am just saying that with different group of people taking power, "justice" and what's good / harmful to society would suddenly do a 180. Would this have anything to do with what's actually good to humanity? No. 

So what I am trying to say is that since our concepts of justice and good/bad are so flimsy and are not grounded in anything real, then maybe we shouldn't be playing with death sentences willy nilly? 

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Obviously not since the state has a monoploy on murder.

Quote

People hanging them would be the state by then. That's the issue.

Just like when communists took over power in Russia.

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Death penalty for political assasination vs teaching is night and day.

Do you want to live in the Middle Ages?

Once again, I am just trying to say how relative all those notions of harm to society are. Which is why I am advocating against death penalty period.

I am sure a priest in middle ages could make an argument that heresy against God is more harmful then murdering a single person.

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

People hanging them would be the state by then. That's the issue.

Just like when communists took over power in Russia.

A pitchfork mob is NOT the state.

Come on now.

Edited February 23 by Leo Gura

[Something Funny]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

A pitchfork mob is NOT the state.

Isn't that how America stopped being a British Colony?

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Isn't that how America stopped being a British Colony?

Americans started out as lizards crawling out of the ocean.

[Something Funny]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Americans started out as lizards crawling out of the ocean.

So you are trying to say that the time of rebellions and pitchforks has passed?

Maybe that's the case, idk. But even so, I am not sure how this changes my main point about how our current justice system isn't actually always just and isn't actually always right. 

You yourself acknowledge the corruption. And I know your thoughts on Trump. Why would you believe that a society so corrupt that it chooses Trump for its president should have a death penalty? It's basically guaranteed that it will be abused and misused. 

And your only argument for why it's better than a life sentence is that you don't want to waste precious resources on criminals? How is this even relevant considering all the other wastefulness that's going on? 

According to chat gpt:

In 2022, 20 people were sentenced to death.

In 2021, 18 people were sentenced to death.

How much can it possibly cost to keep those people alive, for it to be such a concern? A year of Trump golfing for their whole life time?

Edited February 23 by Something Funny

[AION]

Death penalty is unnecessary and abject. It is an artifact of the medieval times. 

[LambdaDelta]

10 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

And your only argument for why it's better than a life sentence is that you don't want to waste precious resources on criminals?

Surpringly, life in prison is typically cheaper than death sentence. Obviously because of all the appeals, protests, preparation, major issues from failed executions, etc. Taking the convict out back to be shot immediately after sentencing would be cheaper of course, but that's not how it goes. People spend decades on death row. So those systemic inefficiencies make the costs much higher. 

https://susqu-researchmanagement.esploro.exlibrisgroup.com/esploro/fulltext/journalArticle/The-Death-Penalty-vs-Life-Incarceration/991002248645405236?repId=12230200950005236&mId=13230174270005236&institution=01SUU_INST

 

[Leo Gura]

26 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

And your only argument for why it's better than a life sentence is that you don't want to waste precious resources on criminals?

My argument is maintaining a culture of strictness and seriousness. To prevent the creep of laxity.

You people have forgotten the true value of conservatism. Conservatism is not all MAGA buffoonery.

Edited February 23 by Leo Gura