The Subjectivity of Wrongness

[Wisebaxter]

Just watching Leo's episode on Wrongness and trying to write this list for myself. But how am I supposed to make an accurate assessment when I'm the one making it and I'm so racked with self bias? Sure there are obvious things you can be wrong about, like taking a wrong turn, or buying the wrong brand of sushi, but when it comes to more subjective considerations things fall down because how do I know if I was gaslighting my ex, or whether she was gaslighting me? How do I know if I was wrong when I saw Christ during my trip, because maybe Christ is real and the psychedelic showed me the truth. We've talked before about everything being relative, so if that's the case, wrongness as a concept is a relative consideration and completely fabricated by myself. If I'm making it all up, I'm also making up wrongness. Here are some more examples I can't make an assessment on:

Being wrong about leaving my relationship. Maybe I should have tried harder and now we'd be fine.

Being wrong about taking that course, because adacemia is a scam. Maybe the problem isn't the course but the fact that I'm lazy. How do I know? Really my ego is going to come up with the answer that suits me. 

Being wrong about becoming a Christian. Says who? Who's going to convince me that Christ isn't real and faith isn't a good idea? Nobody but myself. And what if I'm wrong about being wrong about that? 

Being wrong about that friend who screwed me over. Did he screw me over, or did I screw him over, like he told me I did?

You get the idea. It all seems like an exercise in futility, unless we're only addressing really obvious things? Which of course does have it's own value 

 

Edited yesterday at 06:52 PM by Wisebaxter

[Leo Gura]

Of course it's wrongness relative to the light of your own consciousness. How else could it be? Your consciousness is the only game in town.

But by the light of your own consciousness you clearly see things you've done in the past which were wrong. So wrong that you look back at it now and you cringe. But, there is more of this wrongness within you right now which you have not yet recognized, but you could recognize.

To get grounded, start by deeply investigating examples of ways you've been clearly wrong in the past. And I don't just mean obvious things. You've been clearly wrong about many non-obvious, subtle things which took your years of life experience to realize and outgrow. Investigate that. Then you will have examples to help you identify more wrongness which is yet hidden within you.

It is not futile at all. You should be able to make a list of 100 things you've been wrong about in your life. And not just trivial stuff -- profound, serious, subtle, important stuff.

There are a lot more ways of being wrong than being right. So don't worry, you've got plenty of grist for the mill here.

But also, it takes experience, suffering, time, and distance to start to see serious wrongness within you. You're too close to yourself to see all of it. But still, you should be able to see some. As just the tip of the iceberg you can explore all the ways you've been wrong just in your activity on this forum. Not wrong according to me or some Mod, wrong according to your own better judgment.

Everyone one this forum should recognize things they said on this forum that were wrong, which you know you would not have said if you were more consciousness and less selfish. Of course I speak from experience.

Edited yesterday at 08:25 AM by Leo Gura

[NoN-RaTiOnAL]

It seems like you are assuming there is an actual right or wrong here you are on your way to discover.
There isnt. 
the only thing thats happening is  just you forming a more robust, profound and nuanced point of view over time which changes the things you regard as right or wrong over time. Its the game of being a seperate self - you have a natural right to form your own dumb opinions  

[Hojo]

You just keep asking yourself why over and over and you will get an answer. Your brain has to come up with something and if you keep asking why it will tell you.

[Wisebaxter]

@Leo Gura Thanks for taking me through this. Well there certainly is plenty I feel I may have been wrong about. I wasn't lacking items, I was just struggling with knowing whether I was wrong or not. In many cases I can't seem to find a reliable way of making that call. I'm coming at the list from a very moral standpoint, as I have a lot of guilt and regret about things. I feel like I need to develop some kind of rule that will allow me to know whether I was wrong. Here's a question then. If we were to have some kind of rule, that would allow us to see whether our actions or choices were wrong, relative to ourselves, what would it be? Something like:

It caused unnecessary suffering for ourselves and/or others

It set us back in life 

It ran contrary to our goals and desires and sabotaged them

It was selfish and unloving 

4 hours ago, NoN-RaTiOnAL said:

the only thing thats happening is  just you forming a more robust, profound and nuanced point of view over time which changes the things you regard as right or wrong over time. 

@NoN-RaTiOnAL How can we refine this point of view? What system can we use? It seems like we almost need to create a relative template or a map. What would constitute more profound/nuanced, or less so? 

 

3 hours ago, Hojo said:

You just keep asking yourself why over and over and you will get an answer. Your brain has to come up with something and if you keep asking why it will tell you.

@Hojo This is good, thanks.I do get impatient if things don't seem obvious straight away. This clearly isn't as simple as just saying quickly 'yeah I was wrong.' Most of the time anyway. I need to work out why I was, why I'm making that estimation.

Edited yesterday at 07:12 PM by Wisebaxter

[Hojo]

@Wisebaxter Like with this

Being wrong about leaving my relationship. Maybe I should have tried harder and now we'd be fine.

why would am I wrong about leaving my relationship?

The brain will come up with an answer just say we were fighting all the time for hypothetical

why were we fighting all the time?

as a hypothetical she was being a b word

why was she being a b word?

Hypothetically because of something that happened

Why did that happen?

and so on and so on so on.

You can probably find the answer by doing this for 15 minutes.

If you start looping it means you are being dishonest.

Edited yesterday at 04:19 PM by Hojo

[Wisebaxter]

@Hojo

Thank you for taking the time 🙂 I'll put some time into this and see how I get on.  

[ExploringReality]

@Leo Gura

Wow! I have been wrong for writing stupid, mean and low consciousness things on this forum. I apologize. 

[Terell Kirby]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Everyone one this forum should recognize things they said on this forum that were wrong, which you know you would not have said if you were more consciousness and less selfish. Of course I speak from experience.

How do keep from guilting and shaming yourself for mistakes made due to lack of consciousness? So easy to be perfectionistic about this work.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

How do keep from guilting and shaming yourself for mistakes made due to lack of consciousness? So easy to be perfectionistic about this work.

By realizing that everyone starts life from a position of total ignorance and the only way to learn is to make mistakes and study the feedback.

By realizing that being wrong is nothing personal. You did the best you knew at the time.

Edited yesterday at 07:00 PM by Leo Gura

[Wisebaxter]

25 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

How do keep from guilting and shaming yourself for mistakes made due to lack of consciousness? So easy to be perfectionistic about this work.

@Terrelllease@Terell Kirby This makes me think of something Peter Ralston says in his book 'Mastery.' He talks about detaching any emotional content or subjective valuations from the truth itself, as it's superfluous content that actually interferes with being able to see things clearly. This content adds extra distinctions that act as a fog. Easier said than done of course, as these valuations of wrongness will probably be made due to the effect the situation had on you emotionally. That being said, you could notice that it made you feel this way or that way, but try not to let all that creep back in too much. I'm probably talking shit as per usual though. I really have no clue as I haven't even started the work. I'm just a theory junkie. I collect the damn things  

Edited yesterday at 07:13 PM by Wisebaxter

[Terell Kirby]

3 hours ago, Wisebaxter said:

I'm just a theory junkie. 

Aren’t we all?