My dad and mom torture seafood

[TheEnigma]

When bought from the store. Crabs and Lobsters are alive. my parents believe in making it suffer first before killing them, saying that if it struggles and it's fresh, it would taste better. I would feel very sorry for the creature as it fights back. First they use a large knife and pound on the claws. And then rip it's body into pieces. And finally pull off it's head. And it's still struggling. And my dad would say "I'll fight this one first. I prefer more of a challenge." People slaughter and hurt animals all the time. But how come no karma gets them? Leo taught Karma means action and that karma already got an individual. But most killings really have no karma. So why even be higher conscious? What peace does someone get from not harming living things? Many people step on ants for fun. But there is never justice done to the human. It doesn't feel like there's ever karma. How does not harming living things actually help humans find peace? My dad and mom even take pleasure in hurting living things, then eating them, and they're still at peace. Vegetarians don't even neccessaily have more peaceful lives.

Edited February 17 by TheEnigma

[Spiritual Warrior]

Your parents are willingly causing pain to another creature so that it will "taste better" for them. This is very selfish behavior. 

The universe does not reward selfishness, this will hurt them spiritually.

[Leeo_SA]

@TheEnigma

I used to believe that karma strikes back directly in such situations. I do something wrong, so I am 'punished' for it with karma. And this punishment is directly linked to the negative behavior.

Today I think that's a human way of looking at things. Karma can take many different forms or show up on different levels that are not directly connected to the event.
- Are your parents really happy?
- What will happen to them in 2 years?
- Or negative event in their childhood is the reaction of karma

Karma doesn't have to be time bound, doesn't have to be clearly connected to the trigger (my view).

All events that seem to have nothing to do with the behavior you described.

Another perspective would be one that may not be directly related to karma: What's so bad about torturing animals? How do you ultimately know that this is good or bad? It's your personal standard of values.
Ultimately, everything is love, everything is God. Ultimately, everything is totally balanced.

[TheEnigma]

53 minutes ago, Leeo_SA said:

@TheEnigma

I used to believe that karma strikes back directly in such situations. I do something wrong, so I am 'punished' for it with karma. And this punishment is directly linked to the negative behavior.

Today I think that's a human way of looking at things. Karma can take many different forms or show up on different levels that are not directly connected to the event.
- Are your parents really happy?
- What will happen to them in 2 years?
- Or negative event in their childhood is the reaction of karma

Karma doesn't have to be time bound, doesn't have to be clearly connected to the trigger (my view).

All events that seem to have nothing to do with the behavior you described.

Another perspective would be one that may not be directly related to karma: What's so bad about torturing animals? How do you ultimately know that this is good or bad? It's your personal standard of values.
Ultimately, everything is love, everything is God. Ultimately, everything is totally balanced.

Okay, well written response. Then why do all high conscious philosophers teach humans not to harm or dominate living things? Leo even said the more violent the lower the consciousness. My mom and and dad are happy people. But they have lots of denial that allows them the happiness. In fact, I see many low conscious people happy. Because they don't have the ability to realize what they do is harmful. Like Trump, as Leo said if Trump realized all he did was harmful he'd never be able to live with himself. Yet Leo said the higher the consciousness generally the happier the individual.

Edited February 17 by TheEnigma

[Leeo_SA]

@TheEnigma

3 hours ago, TheEnigma said:

Okay, well written response. Then why do all high conscious philosophers teach humans not to harm or dominate living things? Leo even said the more violent the lower the consciousness.

Thank you. 

Because they know of karma.

the deeper the consciousness, the more egocentric you are. take a look at spiral dynamics stage red. or ego development according to Cook Greuter.
If you are egotistical, then you live in the belief that you can lose something. That's why you have to defend what you accumulate at all costs. Karma is something of higher states of consciousness and therefore not in the consciousness of egoistic people.

 

3 hours ago, TheEnigma said:

My mom and and dad are happy people. But they have lots of denial that allows them the happiness. In fact, I see many low conscious people happy. Because they don't have the ability to realize what they do is harmful. Like Trump, as Leo said if Trump realized all he did was harmful he'd never be able to live with himself. Yet Leo said the higher the consciousness generally the happier the individual.

I know what you mean. I was amazed to see that too.
I question a lot of things, have a higher level of consciousness than others and still wonder why it seems that other people are happier. 
I think that underlines what I said. The reaction of karma is not to be seen directly after the negative behavior. Because it is not time-bound, we cannot know exactly which of our negative behaviors will cause which karmic reaction.

Your parents: If they torture the animals and immediately afterwards a crab hurts them or they burn their fingers in hot water, then it could be seen as a connected karmic reaction. but that's not how karma works.
If it worked like that, we would probably be a nicer species.

People with a lower level of consciousness do not know or believe in karma. They project everything bad that happens to them outwards. The outside is to blame, not them (although they are according to the karma set).
I'm not American, but with Trump it's like this: he blames foreigners, his opponent, etc. Everyone is to blame except himself and the people who support his opinion.
Is he happy? I don't know, I don't think so. I think he's trapped in a non-stop fight and flight reaction, he needs perpetual security 

4 hours ago, TheEnigma said:

Yet Leo said the higher the consciousness generally the happier the individual.

When you really realize that bad needs to be next to good, Yin Yang etc. than you can accept the world as it is. With everything in it. 

If you condemn something, then you have not yet understood something. Then you need to grow in the next bigger conscious level.

[integral]

Lower Perspective: Karma = Moral Punishment, "God is keeping count"

Higher Perspective: Karma = Indirect Cause and Effect, "Systems balance themselves"

Higher Perspective: Karma = Restoring equilibrium, "Harmony with the Whole"

Quote

AI 

Indirect Cause and Effect

Karma, when viewed through the lens of cause and effect and systems thinking, can be understood as an interconnected feedback loop where actions (causes) set off a chain of events that influence future conditions (effects), often in ways that are indirect and emergent rather than immediately obvious.

1. Systems Thinking Perspective

Interdependence: Actions don’t happen in isolation; they interact with other elements in a system, often creating ripple effects beyond immediate observation.

Feedback Loops: Karma can be seen as a reinforcing (positive) or balancing (negative) feedback loop:

Reinforcing Loops amplify the impact of an action over time, making consequences larger.

Balancing Loops create self-correcting mechanisms that bring stability.

Delay Effects: Just as in complex systems, consequences of actions may not be immediate but unfold over time, influenced by various interactions.

2. Indirect Effects & Emergence

Karma is rarely linear (A → B). Instead, it often follows nonlinear pathways where multiple factors interact unpredictably.

Small actions can create unintended consequences over time due to indirect causality (e.g., a small ethical decision shaping long-term trust and relationships).

Patterns emerge from repeated actions, reinforcing behaviors and shaping one's future trajectory.

3. Practical Example

Imagine a company with unethical leadership:

Short-term, unethical decisions increase profits.

Over time, employees lose trust, leading to high turnover.

This damages innovation and customer satisfaction.

Eventually, the company collapses—not due to a single action but a systemic accumulation of effects.

Karma, in this sense, aligns with complex adaptive systems, where every action contributes to the evolving state of the system, often in ways that cannot be precisely predicted but generally follow the logic of what you put in, you get out—just not always directly or immediately.

So there is no "accumulation" of karma on a individual, no one is keeping count, this is a lower perspective. The system/whole/environment you are in will balance itself out.

If your selfishness is not in conflict with the world/whole then you are in harmony with it.

This is why trump will have no consequences, hes in alignment with the larger system of selfish delusional people.

Karma has nothing to do with morality. This distinction has to be understood.

Can you imagine a Nazi complaining about the lack of karma in the world? THEY DO. Because they are projecting there morality on to everything.

Edited February 17 by integral

[integral]

Another important point, is karma from a lower perspective is part of a larger domain of lower spirituality, and most people are in this bubble.

Got to really examine your entire concept of spirituality.

In the same way religious people confuse what they believe as highest spirituality.

[Hojo]

According to spiritual people it has the opposite effect and this is a spiritual theory. When it suffers it shoots negative chemical through its body and meat and when you eat it the food is tainted in a low vibration. Have you ever asked them where they got this idea from and how it can make any sense? Ask them if they have ever tried being nice to the animal before killing it and testing whether this theory is true or they just blindly believe that torturing animals is good like a retard.

Tell them this might be a very bad decision they are making based on nothing beside wanting to harm an helpless thing as much as possible. They might be poisoning their food so it tastes better. I dont know where asians came up with this theory but its completely nonsense.

I feel like you are getting karma from this not your parents.

Edited February 17 by Hojo

[AION]

1 hour ago, integral said:

Lower Perspective: Karma = Moral Punishment, "God is keeping count"

Higher Perspective: Karma = Indirect Cause and Effect, "Systems balance themselves"

Higher Perspective: Karma = Restoring equilibrium, "Harmony with the Whole"

So there is no "accumulation" of karma on a individual, no one is keeping count, this is a lower perspective. The system/whole/environment you are in will balance itself out.

If your selfishness is not in conflict with the world/whole then you are in harmony with it.

This is why trump will have no consequences, hes in alignment with the larger system of selfish delusional people.

Karma has nothing to do with morality. This distinction has to be understood.

Can you imagine a Nazi complaining about the lack of karma in the world? THEY DO. Because they are projecting there morality on to everything.

This is so true. Bad people get away with things all the time. It is all about being able to navigate the universe and there are certain rules and if you break the rules it will cause bad karma if you don’t look out. 

Edited February 17 by AION

[Elliott]

Happy people are torturing lobsters?

In another thread a guy kicked a dog trying to bite him and he feels terrible.

Most people are miserable, some hide it, some are open about it. If karma doesn't exist, then it isn't needed anyway. Being good doesn't make you happy though or your life better, but being happy makes you good.

You're going to make me read Consider the lobster by david Wallace again.

Edited February 17 by Elliott

[PurpleTree]

Then i‘m glad my mother never caused suffering to animals for fun.

She‘s even willing to take animals out of their misery when she sees them suffering a lot.

Like one time she saw a cat getting hit by a car and saw that it suffered, took a knife and wanted to take the cat out of its misery. Gladly the cat died on itself.

[The Crocodile]

3 hours ago, Elliott said:

In another thread a guy kicked a dog trying to bite him and he feels terrible.

What happened was he walked onto somebody else's property, walked up to a golden retriever with the express intention of interacting with it, then when it went to interact with him he started kicking it, it possibly fought back, and he kicked it until it actually seemed to be dead.

[Jannes]

I could develop a poison in secret that would hurt all of humanity and on the surface dont get any karma backlash. Thats hard to swallow. But I think in the bigger picture it does hurt oneself in ways that aren't directly obvious. 

To your example first - well your response is a bit of a karma backlash already. You probably tend to distance yourself from them because of it, so thats bad for them I assume. 

How you do one thing is how you do everything else, when they do this sort of thing it probably means that they also behave in unconscious behavior in other areas of life where karma backlash is inescapable. 

And it's kinda true that it hurts them spiritually. The unconscious state they put themself in hurts themselves too because they are so far away from anything holy. 

[Jannes]

9 minutes ago, The Crocodile said:

What happened was he walked onto somebody else's property, walked up to a golden retriever with the express intention of interacting with it, then when it went to interact with him he started kicking it, it possibly fought back, and he kicked it until it actually seemed to be dead.

Thats not the whole story. He had an anxiety attack for example. Here is the whole story:

 

[The Crocodile]

1 minute ago, Jannes said:

Thats not the whole story. He had an anxiety attack for example. Here is the whole story:

Plenty of people have anxiety attacks without committing violence, dear.

[Jannes]

Just now, The Crocodile said:

Plenty of people have anxiety attacks without committing violence, dear.

It's unfair to not tell the whole story. If at the end you still think he should be shamed for it thats fair but tell the whole story. From your half story it sounds like he just wanted to kick the dog for fun. 

 

I think there are different degrees of anxiety, other mental illnesses could be at play and no situation is completely comparable to the other - It could have been a very unlucky situation, where the worst possible reality that could have happened happened by chance. He could have had a really bad day not ruining it by doing paper work in another parallel reality for example. I dont think that excuses the situation but it makes it more reasonable and the person more human like. That he feels sorry for what he has done, did other posts writing about being ashamed for voting for trump seems to suggest that he has conscientiousness. Thats my take on it you can disagree of course. 

[The Crocodile]

@Jannes You missed the point. "In another thread a guy kicked a dog trying to bite him" totally misrepresented the story.

[Jannes]

1 hour ago, The Crocodile said:

@Jannes You missed the point. "In another thread a guy kicked a dog trying to bite him" totally misrepresented the story.

Yes you are right he likely downplayed the situation but I dont think that "he kicked a dog for fun" is the truth either. 

[The Crocodile]

15 minutes ago, Jannes said:

"he kicked a dog for fun"

I didn't say he kicked a dog for fun.

Get the difference?

[ivarmaya]

Your behavior and your level of consciousness are directly connected…one shapes the other in a continuous loop. Your actions aren’t just random choices…they’re an extension of your state of being. The more someone engages in cruelty, deception, or selfishness…the more they embody what could be called “devilish” tendencies…the lower their consciousness sinks. This isn’t about morality or judgment, it’s just how reality works. Consciousness and behavior feed into each other.

Low-consciousness behavior comes from separation, illusion, and a lack of consciousness. Acts of cruelty, manipulation, and domination happen when someone is deeply identified with their ego…the part of them that sees itself as separate from everything else and is constantly trying to control and dominate to feel secure. But that’s a false perception. Reality is interconnected, and consciousness, at its core, is unified. The more someone acts from a place of separation, the more they reinforce their own suffering. Not because they’re being “punished,” but because they’re building a fragmented and disconnected experience of reality.

This suffering isn’t always obvious. Someone can look happy while indulging in destructive behavior, but that happiness is fragile and dependent on external distractions…whether it’s pleasure, power, or control. It’s unsustainable because it’s built on illusion. Beneath the surface, they’re trapped in a cycle of tension, craving, and existential emptiness. No matter how much they suppress it, it’s there. As well as they are going “against” reality, which always has it’s consequences.

This is why people with higher consciousness naturally embody compassion and non-domination. It’s not because they follow rules or because they want to be seen as “good.” It’s because when you see reality clearly, you naturally align with love, wisdom, and peace. Not because you “should,” but because it just makes sense. When separation is seen as an illusion, cruelty and domination stop being appealing…they’re recognized as self-destructive.

What people call “karma” isn’t some cosmic punishment system keeping score. It’s just the natural feedback loop of reality. Since your consciousness and behavior are intertwined, actions that come from a low state of being reinforce that state, and actions that come from clarity and unity reinforce higher consciousness. This isn’t a rule imposed from outside, it’s just how reality organizes itself.

That’s why suffering isn’t some arbitrary consequence…it’s a direct result of unconsciousness. It’s not that “bad” actions lead to suffering in a cause-and-effect way. Rather, destructive behavior is already a symptom of a fragmented, suffering mind. The more you operate from that place, the more you trap yourself in lower states of consciousness. On the other hand, the more you act from truth/love, the more you experience peace…not because you’re being “rewarded,” but because that’s the nature of reality itself.

These are the basics.

Edited February 18 by ivarmaya