What is your stance on a liberal secondary education?

[Basman]

We are seeing a general decline in students enrolling into the humanities in favor of more vocational education with a bunch of humanity degree holders and professors crying about it. While its a shame on the one hand that people seem less interested learning soft skills, philosophy for instance can change your worldview substantially, on the other hand, the decline of humanities is really the bubble bursting for the value of degrees in my opinion. The humanities where artificially large post WW2 till now due to the value of a degree but that value has now plummeted resulting in people to whom a liberal education is a luxury otherwise opting for more vocational education and hard skills.

If you think about it, liberal education has been something that rich elites did primarily. Most if not all great philosopher have been elites who didn't have to worry about basic survival. It is correct in my opinion that humanities are shrinking down to a minority. We as a society simply don't need that many philosophers and sociologists and what not. 

However, I do think a liberal education should be an important part of primary education. It is just that many of the courses that are liberal in nature aren't all that educational in practice in my experience. Foreign languages for instance are glorified cultural exchanges for the most part. Only 15% of students will actually go on to communicate with the foreign language after 4 years of study. That's a lot of time spent learning about tacos and how to say "beer" in Spanish for it all to be just forgotten after exams. Meanwhile people have no understanding of finances.

This forums seems to be much more practical in general and I think most here would prioritize hard skills over soft skills. I'd be especially interested in hearing from people who have or are studying a liberal arts degree in what they think about this decline and the value of a liberal secondary education.

[SwiftQuill]

My opinion on the topic is that the education system deserves many changes on various levels.

First off, I think it would be ideal if throughout highschool for instance, students were forced to take at least one "hard skill" class just to be able to get by in late stage capitalism. Examples of classes would be electricity, mechanics, industrial machines, customer support, stuff like that.

Second, I think the education system is too fucked right now in the sense it leaves students tired, unmotivated, and stressed out. I know there is no one education sytem, it depends on your country and even city. But most people I speak to say the same thing. They hated school or think most kids nowadays hate school. My highschool was almost 40 hours worth of classes. What kind of student arrives home after 8 hours of classes and has energy or motivation to do homework and study? This is too much.

I think introducing more classes to an already demanding system could make it worse. I do think, however, there is room for revision. I'll be honest, even as a software developer/data scientist, I've NEVER had to use derivatives or integration for my work. I don't think kids need to study THAT much maths. 

One class I adored in highschool (which here is mandatory) was philosophy. Fantastic class. I was taught aristotelic logic and all the formal and informal fallacies, and even a bit of ethics/morality. I think philosophy is the kind of class that should be mandatory for all students at some point.

One other subject I think should be taught is Study Methods. Many students don't even know how to study. They don't know how to read efficienty and how to take notes, and even how to approach the academic challenges. I struggled with this myself until late in highschool. So I think Study Methods would be mandatory.

I had Literature class almost all 12 years, and I think that BS is a bit much. We don't need that much literature.

Some people suggest kids should be taught Finance, and I agree, but then again it goes the opposite of your suggestion (more focus on soft classes).

I think basic positive psychology would also be a crucial subject at some point. Concepts to learn here would be: how to communicate assertively with compassion, how to experience emotions in a healthy way, how to develop self discipline, how to be cooperative, how to care about others in a healthy way. This is what I refer to as "good woke" ideas.

I also think many classes I had in middle school were 100% waste of time, like "civics education" (I'm not sure how it's called in English) or "Project Class" (a class where you do projects on random topics, just to learn to use Powerpoint and give oral presentations, which is something you already do in most other classes).

I also think gender studies could be a good class to teach. BUT DO IT WISELY WITHOUT IDEOLOGY. What I mean is teach kids that there are different kinds of sexual expressions, not all men express "masculinity" in the same manner, not all people are straight, not all people experience sexuality in the binary way. Teach them the difference between gender vs sex vs sexual expression vs sexual orientation etc. - notions that even wokies fail to understand.

[Basman]

@SwiftQuill What do you think of the current state of liberal arts degrees?

[Shodburrito]

@Basman

I think what we're seeing in higher education right now is actually super fascinating. The way I see it, there's this huge shift happening that really shows us how everything about college is changing. Like, when you really stop and think about it, students making different choices about what to study is actually telling us something deeper about society as a whole.

I've been observing this trend for a while now, and I honestly believe that what's happening with humanities isn't just about fewer people taking philosophy classes. It's about how education itself is evolving. The more I analyze this situation, the more I realize that everything is connected in ways that most people don't even notice.

From my perspective, the real issue isn't even about whether humanities are "good" or "bad" - it's way more complex than that. I've found that when you look at how everything fits together, you start seeing these patterns that just make so much sense. Like, students choosing more practical majors isn't just about jobs - it's about how society is changing, which is about how education is changing, which goes back to how society is changing.

[Basman]

5 minutes ago, Shodburrito said:

@Basman

I think what we're seeing in higher education right now is actually super fascinating. The way I see it, there's this huge shift happening that really shows us how everything about college is changing. Like, when you really stop and think about it, students making different choices about what to study is actually telling us something deeper about society as a whole.

I've been observing this trend for a while now, and I honestly believe that what's happening with humanities isn't just about fewer people taking philosophy classes. It's about how education itself is evolving. The more I analyze this situation, the more I realize that everything is connected in ways that most people don't even notice.

From my perspective, the real issue isn't even about whether humanities are "good" or "bad" - it's way more complex than that. I've found that when you look at how everything fits together, you start seeing these patterns that just make so much sense. Like, students choosing more practical majors isn't just about jobs - it's about how society is changing, which is about how education is changing, which goes back to how society is changing.

Well, don't leave me hanging. How's society changing exactly? Don't you think the biggest factor is simply degrees not holding the value they used to?

[Shodburrito]

@Basman

I realize that society isn't just changing in one direction - it's actually changing in all directions at once, which creates this kind of multidimensional shift that affects everything while also being affected by everything. The degree thing is definitely part of it, but it's also about how we're all collectively experiencing this transformation in how we understand the relationship between education and success.

I've found that when you really look closely at how society is changing, you start to see that everything is connected in these really profound ways that most people miss. Like, degrees losing value isn't just about the job market - it's about how we're all reimagining what value even means in today's world.

Just my thoughts based on what I've been observing. Would love to hear more about how you see these connections playing out!

[Basman]

@Shodburrito Well, I think what is happening is essentially that after WW2, higher education started becoming more accessible and having a degree still held a lot of value for employment as higher education used to be a more gated community. Eventually degrees lost their value as more people got them so people started prioritizing employability over knowledge for its own sake. Fundamentally, most people treat education as a means to an end rather than knowledge for its own sake. Back then, a liberal arts degree was good enough to get a cushy white collar job but now that is the just the bare minimum so you didn't have to be as practical with your choice of degree.

My interpretation is that the decline of the liberal arts is simply the bubble bursting. It was artificially high and most people in fact aren't interested in knowledge for its own sake. Historically, a liberal education was something that the elites of society cut their teeth on. They didn't have to worry about where their next meal came from so they could wonder why the stars are like that and why apples fall down from trees. Or if gender is a social construct or if the earth is actually round. Notice how most if not all great philosophers have been wealthy elites or where at least very comfortable (Aristotle, Kant, Hegel, etc.).

My second conclusion is that we don't need that many people interested in knowledge for its own sake so its fine that the liberal arts are shrinking in my opinion. We need people to be nurses, plumbers and cops for society to function. A taste of liberal education during their compulsory schooling is really good enough for them I think.

[Shodburrito]

@Basman

Let me share some deeper insights about this societal shift you're describing. When you really look at how education and society interact, you start to see these fascinating patterns emerging. It's not just about degrees losing value - it's about how our entire relationship with knowledge is transforming in response to these broader changes. The way we value education now compared to the post-WW2 era reveals something profound about how society evolves and adapts to new realities.

The really interesting part is how this connects to larger questions about the purpose of education itself. Like, when you think about it, the current trend isn't just about practicality winning over pure knowledge - it's about how society naturally finds its balance between different types of learning and understanding. I've noticed that this whole process kind of mirrors how societies throughout history have gone through these cycles of expansion and contraction in different areas, always eventually finding their natural equilibrium. What we're seeing now is just another expression of that pattern playing out in real time.