Stuck in relativism, help me get out (please)

[112233]

I've been steeped in relativism since being a teenager. Upon watching part 2 of the post-modernism series, I've made a list of the problems Leo delineates about post-modernism that I personally fall into. I had a list of 40 points, but most of them seem like perversions of relativism / post-modernism and don't apply here.

I think moving forward from this would be dope. Just have no fucking clue how one would go about that.

• Denial of Absolute Truth: I don't deny Truth per se, however I don't see how a tiny monkey brain could ever grasp the complexity of everything.
• Denial of Genuine Understanding: Yes, I am very skeptical of the possibility of a human gaining any kind of understanding beyond the limitations of their human bias. All I see is human bias. How could it be any other way? I am human. I see w/ human eyes, hear w/ human ears, smell w/ human nostrils, think w/ human mind, etc. How could I possibly understand the direct experience of a bat experiencing the world via echolocation?
• Denial of Transcendence: I DO see how one could transcend things like cultural and linguistic bias, however I don't see how one could transcend human bias itself. I can have "transcendent" experiences, but these are all still in the context / construct of human experience, or what a human could experience.
• Self-Contradiction: How the fuck would I go about deconstructing relativism / post-modernism?
• Lack of Holistic Understanding: Yes, absolutely I see knowledge fragmented in the mind of a human. Again, how could a tiny monkey brain grasp the complexity of everything?
• Does Not Lead to Awakening or Enlightenment: Yep.

I'm aware everyone's journey can look wildly different. If any of yous have moved past this stage of development, I'd love to hear anecdotes of how that came about for you personally.

[aurum]

Good stuff. You're on the right track, just need to deepen your understanding.

59 minutes ago, 112233 said:

All I see is human bias. How could it be any other way? I am human. I see w/ human eyes, hear w/ human ears, smell w/ human nostrils, think w/ human mind, etc. How could I possibly understand the direct experience of a bat experiencing the world via echolocation

Because you are not really human.

This is what is revealed with awakening.

59 minutes ago, 112233 said:

I can have "transcendent" experiences, but these are all still in the context / construct of human experience, or what a human could experience.

No, these experiences are not just human. Not if you go deep enough.

That's the whole point.

They are transcendent because they transcend being human.

59 minutes ago, 112233 said:

I don't deny Truth per se, however I don't see how a tiny monkey brain could ever grasp the complexity of everything.

That's why we have tools to help your tiny monkey brain 

59 minutes ago, 112233 said:

How the fuck would I go about deconstructing relativism / post-modernism?

You just need to contemplate. If you watched Leo's series, then should already have a good place to start.

What's wrong with post-modernism? What does it get wrong?

Keep working at that until it's clear.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, 112233 said:

I've been steeped in relativism since being a teenager.

That's good. At least you are thinking. It's a good place to start.

Quote

• Denial of Absolute Truth: I don't deny Truth per se, however I don't see how a tiny monkey brain could ever grasp the complexity of everything.

You won't ever grasp the complexity of every thing, however you can grasp the big picture, the ultimate nature of reality.

"Tiny monkey brain" is a construction. You are neither a monkey nor a brain nor tiny. Those are assumptions and illusions which you can break through.

Quote

• Denial of Genuine Understanding: Yes, I am very skeptical of the possibility of a human gaining any kind of understanding beyond the limitations of their human bias. All I see is human bias. How could it be any other way? I am human. I see w/ human eyes, hear w/ human ears, smell w/ human nostrils, think w/ human mind, etc. How could I possibly understand the direct experience of a bat experiencing the world via echolocation?

Lots of assumptions here.

You assume bats and others exist.

You assume you are a human.

You assume that bias cannot be overcome.

Quote

• Denial of Transcendence: I DO see how one could transcend things like cultural and linguistic bias, however I don't see how one could transcend human bias itself. I can have "transcendent" experiences, but these are all still in the context / construct of human experience, or what a human could experience

Imagine an even higher level of transcendence beyond human experience and perception.

Quote

• Self-Contradiction: How the fuck would I go about deconstructing relativism / post-modernism?

I did it for you in the video.

Relativity is a deep aspect of reality, so you don't need to deconstruct it, you just need to contemplate and properly understand it, rather than abusing it.

Quote

• Lack of Holistic Understanding: Yes, absolutely I see knowledge fragmented in the mind of a human. Again, how could a tiny monkey brain grasp the complexity of everything?

All the finite things have one singular source. By becoming conscious of that source you will understand the essence of all finite things.

You can understand what a cat is without needing to see every cat in the world. Studying a handful of cats is sufficient to understand catness. So it's not as hard as you make it seem.

Quote

• I'm aware everyone's journey can look wildly different. If any of yous have moved past this stage of development, I'd love to hear anecdotes of how that came about for you personally.

Just realize that reality has some ultimate over-arching structure which is not relative, even though within that structure you can have endless points of view.

Reality is a dream imagined by an infinite mind. This is not relative. But the content inside those dreams is relative. Don't get stuck in the content within the dream. You are missing consciousness of that ultimate structure which is not dream-specific.

Edited February 7 by Leo Gura

[Daniel Balan]

Relativism ain't a bad thing. It is beautiful to understand that everything in this dream is relative. All you need to do is behave in a councious way. Relativism isn't a licence to behave like a psycho! Relativism for me, grounded me even harder in survival, made me understand how serious survival is, and to not take survival for granted.

[Aaron p]

find balance 

Leo's teachings are advanced and lots of it is supplementary not daily sustenance. 

My good friend sent me this (Book name: Psychedelics & Psychotherapy)

Edited February 7 by Aaron p

[Aaron p]

Bonus insight: the way to best consume the daily bread of Ballance and integration is the strategic elimination of social-spiritual isolation. Being alone is a trap.

[Snader]

On 7.2.2025 at 5:57 AM, 112233 said:

I'm aware everyone's journey can look wildly different. If any of yous have moved past this stage of development, I'd love to hear anecdotes of how that came about for you personally.

I have pretty much dumbed the labels or "spiritual theory" such as God Awakening, Transcendence, Absolute Love, etc. Through different practices I gain insights and experience awakenings, but I try not to label them too much, even though they often have a certain kind of theme or flavor in them, for example infinity, love, oneness, or many simultaneously.

I've had crazy enough experiences to be convinced that not everything real and truthful can be understood in how we conventionally try to understand as human beings. Therefor I have also let go of the need to understand.

I'd say stopping the need to understand has counter-intuitively enabled me to gain understanding. I basically just aim to gently raise my consciousness while living pretty normal life and slowly more and more stuff start making sense and the puzzle getting solved piece by piece, of course in a way I can't perfectly put into words. I think it's important to take your time and not force understanding.

If I had the need to understand everything, make sense of everything or label all my experiences right away, I would probably lose my mind.

Making the journey super personal and keeping it mainly separate from my social life and social identity has also helped a lot. I don't have pressure to communicate my experiences to others so I can kind of "keep the data in its purest form". This although comes with a cost of loneliness and lack of "spiritual connection" to others.

Edited February 8 by Snader

[Aaron p]

Leo way more advanced than us, most of us stumble in here nowhere even close to being ready. To put a metric on Leo's level of development as contrasted against us, he was a millionaire. I think around or before the age of 40. Like DAYUM, his ass is not the same as our asses. 

If relativism is fucking you up, then do a tactical retreat my guy. Develop your mind 100 times more than come back when the inner diety guides you to do so ~

[Atb210201]

If everything is relative then relativism is absolute then everything is not relative.

Boom, Basic Logic.

Edited February 12 by Atb210201

[Leo Gura]

On 2/11/2025 at 5:34 AM, Aaron p said:

he was a millionaire. I think around or before the age of 40.

Money has nothing to do with development.

But yes, you should learn how to earn money so you are not too thirsty. Doing business from scratch is a good development playground. It will teach you important lessons.

Edited February 12 by Leo Gura

[Nemo28]

@Leo Gura 

On 13/02/2025 at 1:32 AM, Leo Gura said:

Money has nothing to do with development.

I think, generally speaking on average, people born in wealthy families have more chances for self development. Cause it's those early years that are most important that sets you for life, when you're still pretty unconscious and are very dependent on others. If you have sheltered life, you can grow more easily, rapidly, healthy. If you're born in dysfunctional family system, life will stunt your growth and many protection mechanisms will have to develop. And good look unravelling those in your adolescence! 

[112233]

On 2/7/2025 at 5:08 AM, aurum said:

That's why we have tools to help your tiny monkey brain 

What have you done specifically, my friend? Would love to hear what you have done yourself. I understand everyone will have a different way of going about things. Despite this, anecdotes can be wildly useful to me.

 

On 2/7/2025 at 9:54 AM, Leo Gura said:

Lots of assumptions here.

You assume bats and others exist.

You assume you are a human.

You assume that bias cannot be overcome.

This helped a lot, thanks.

 

On 2/7/2025 at 9:54 AM, Leo Gura said:

Just realize that reality has some ultimate over-arching structure which is not relative, even though within that structure you can have endless points of view.

I would love to "just realize" this someday haha

 

On 2/7/2025 at 0:02 PM, Daniel Balan said:

Relativism ain't a bad thing. It is beautiful to understand that everything in this dream is relative. All you need to do is behave in a councious way. Relativism isn't a licence to behave like a psycho! Relativism for me, grounded me even harder in survival, made me understand how serious survival is, and to not take survival for granted.

I can definitely relate

 

On 2/7/2025 at 4:18 PM, Aaron p said:

Psychedelics & Psychotherapy

I've read it

 

On 2/11/2025 at 1:34 PM, Aaron p said:

If relativism is fucking you up, then do a tactical retreat my guy. Develop your mind 100 times more than come back when the inner diety guides you to do so ~

It's not fucking me up, I just have yet to dig deeper.... and what is a "tactical retreat"?

[Carl-Richard]

Relativity can either make you feel groundless and skeptical of everything, or it can make you see how everything has a context or is referring to something else, i.e. there is always a ground, but the ground always changes depending on what is placed on it.

If you feel groundless, start to focus on what the ground is in any given situation, try to focus on the structure of that ground, and accept the changes, and maybe you will also start to see larger structures that connect different grounds. Then focus on that, even though those grounds also change.

The difference between letting relativism fuel a cynical and disparaging epistemic attitude (ultimate skepticism/nihilism) vs. letting it fuel a more sober and mature approach, is in large part what you choose to focus on. Instead of focusing on the ground, get really interested in the relationships between things and their ground. After all, there are many things, so maybe looking towards one thing (a ground) is the wrong attitude.

Instead of asking "how can I ultimately justify this ground?", ask "what does this ground support?", "what is it useful for?", "what does it refer to?". Again, what are the structures, the patterns, the "relationality" of the relativity? Ultimate skepticism is more like a feeling or a way of appraising a situation rather than some metaphysical bedrock. Recognize how itself is a frame you interpret things through, rather than ironically being some kind of absolute.

Then you can also ask "what is ultimate skepticism useful for?", "what does it relate to?" Again, I would suggest cynicism, reacting to change, complexity and uncertainty with fear rather than openness; seeing change as groundlessness rather than relationality, seeing complexity as chaos rather than beauty, seeing uncertainty as danger rather than oppurtunity.

Edited Monday at 03:26 AM by Carl-Richard

[aurum]

4 hours ago, 112233 said:

What have you done specifically, my friend? Would love to hear what you have done yourself. I understand everyone will have a different way of going about things. Despite this, anecdotes can be wildly useful to me.

I've been consistently following Leo's content for about a decade, so there's a lot I've done.

I never thought about it like I was trying to escape relativity. I just contemplated what's true. And eventually I necessarily realized that a higher-order Absolute does and must exist. 

Contemplate, contemplate, contemplate. Use tools like psychedelics, meditation, yoga, journaling etc if those feel right for you. But be perpetually curious about reality. That's more fundamental than any tool.

Can you truthfully say you've absolutely determined that absolute truth cannot exist? If not, then your work must continue. 

Edited Monday at 05:18 AM by aurum

[Letho]

@112233 You are in denial of being asleep.

Reality is here.

Now.

Ever-present.

The moment you identify a category without awareness, you cannot differentiate it and it becomes by degrees a warping of your identity. 

The moment you accommodate a category without identification, you are asleep by it.

Consciousness is stream, power, flow. The dimensions of energy.

We are all here solely by relationship.

Do not get sucked in by the honeypot.

The honeypot is your preoccupation.

The very error in most peoples seeking for enlightenment is the seeking itself, because the seeking becomes its own consciousness state, therefore an experience of consciousness that is not the full weight of its power in purity, and within that, its force of agency.

STOP IT.

 

[Aaron p]

On 16/02/2025 at 5:42 PM, Nemo28 said:

generally speaking on average, people born in wealthy families have more chances for self development. 

The opposite to this is true. Most people born into wealth have way less opportunities to become mature. They can coast and live in the Bahamas until their dead if they so desired. 

[Nemo28]

9 hours ago, Aaron p said:

The opposite to this is true. Most people born into wealth have way less opportunities to become mature. They can coast and live in the Bahamas until their dead if they so desired. 

People naturally want to grow and expand, it is hard wired in us, no matter the economical situation, but how it is going to look like might not be in accords with your definition of 'mature'. We can grow in infinite ways, directions. And money certainly helps you to get that support.