Leo's Hot Take on Socializing: Missing the Point Entirely

[RendHeaven]

1 minute ago, Jacob Morres said:

thats a good point. studies at the end of the day measure averages, still i feel this this idea should be implemented strategically, it does come with a lot of risks to give up socialization 

I agree. I will never "give up socialization" because I love people too much. But going forward I will cherish alone time more. Really sink into it as opposed to being vaguely antsy and distracted

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

Yea when Leo uses introvert/extrovert he's not talking about jungian cognitive functions lol he means very simply are you surrounded by people all the time or not

No, I am 100% talking about Jungian cognitive functions.

Whether you are surrounded by people is irrelevant to me. What matters is the core of how your mind works.

Edited 2 hours ago by Leo Gura

[RendHeaven]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, I am 100% talking about Jungian cognitive functions.

@Leo Gura Hmm. Well then in that case you can't just extrapolate from "E" vs "I" and make simple claims about social behavior.

Because as user @Myagooshki points out, the "E" vs "I" demarcation is a shorthand representation of Jung's 8 core cognitive functions: https://cognitiveprocesses.com/

The difference between an INFJ and an ENFJ is NOT how social they are. The difference is in how they process the world.

https://chatgpt.com/share/679c4f03-af34-800f-9d3c-c48484b8a86e

I hope you take the time to read this chatGPT elucidation. Your final conclusion may still hold water, but if you're going to invoke Jungian cognitive functions, then the rationale is more nuanced.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by RendHeaven
forgot to ping leo >:)

[Leo Gura]

@RendHeaven I don't see the relevance of your point. Introverts are less social than extroverts. That's the only relevant point and changes nothing of what I said.

Your point would have been stronger if you appealed to sensing vs intuition and cases of people like introverted sensors or extroverted intuitives.

I've studied all the cognitive functions.

Edited 1 hour ago by Leo Gura

[RendHeaven]

@Leo Gura please read the chatgpt link : ) especially the list at the end.

An ENTP has more mental autonomy than an ISFJ

i'm literally steelmanning you

Edited 1 hour ago by RendHeaven

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

An ENTP has more mental autonomy than an ISFJ

And?

[RendHeaven]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And?

My point:

It's not as clear cut as saying that "Extroverts literally have shallower minds" when "100% talking about Jungian cognitive functions."

(Verbatim your words.)

Because after rigorous digging, the ENTP (extrovert-dominant) mind is on average more resilient against group-think than the ISFJ (introvert-dominant) mind. Yes, this is the one exception which in some sense "proves" the rule. Your claim holds water with regards to the other function stacks.

I'm just encouraging more accurate speech.

[Kairos]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't see the relevance of your point. Introverts are less social than extroverts.

You're wrong @RendHeaven is correct here .

Someone could be a extrovert and not be social at all .There are extroverts who are lost in solitude for their passions .

Example . Nikola Tesla ENTP (Ne -Ti-Fe-Si)

[Kairos]

And there are introverts that are highly social like Jordan Peterson INTP , Drake INFP

[RendHeaven]

1 minute ago, Kairos said:

Example . Nikola Tesla ENTP (Ne -Ti-Fe-Si)

I appreciate the support but I"m pretty sure tesla is INTJ lol. So this particular example works against you.

I think Leo is mostly correct - just overlooking certain nuances and speaking too plainly.

[Kairos]

And from Jungian psychology no one is pure extrovert or in introvert or a single personality type .

Your personality type is superposition of 4 types .

For example , An INTP has:

1)INTP ego

, 2)ESFJ subconsious

, 3) ENTJ shadow

4) ISFP super ego .

They can use either of these depending on situation .NOTICE FOR YOURSELF

[Kairos]

6 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

appreciate the support but I"m pretty sure tesla is INTJ lol. So this particular example works against you

No he isn't look again you're typing him by mainstream means .E vs I , J vs P 

Thats not how it works you gotta type by functions . 

INTJs in general are like NEWTON who care a lot about their reputation and taking credit  because they are Te-Fi users .

Which wasn't the case with Tesla .

You can make a case for him being  INTP but not INTJ

Edited 31 minutes ago by Kairos

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

My point:

It's not as clear cut as saying that "Extroverts literally have shallower minds" when "100% talking about Jungian cognitive functions."

Well, it depends on how generally we are speaking.

You are correct that the other functions are complicating variables which could even cause inversions.

My point was that the more extroverted one tends to be, the more social one tends to be. But also the shallower one's mind tends to be the more enjoyment one will get out of socializing, so the more social one will be. This shallowness of mind is not necessarily all coming from Jungian factors. In general, deep minds are rare, shallow minds are much more common -- regardless of types.

There's a lot complex factors at play here if we want to get very detailed about it.

Keep in mind that there are many degrees of depth of mind. I am talking about depths of mind which most introverts don't even have.

Even though I make use of Jungian factors, I don't limit my understanding of minds to that system.

19 minutes ago, Kairos said:

And there are introverts that are highly social like Jordan Peterson INTP , Drake INFP

Sure. In practice survival forces people to be social whether they want it or not.

It's quite rare to have a career that allows you to be deeply unsocial. Such people exist but we don't even know about them because they are not in the public eye.

People like JP and Drake are highly addicted to their careers, which leads down a certain road and demands lots of socialization. You are literally citing celebrities. Celebrities are by definition hyper social.

20 minutes ago, Kairos said:

Example . Nikola Tesla ENTP (Ne -Ti-Fe-Si)

Tesla was not an extrovert.

Edited 20 minutes ago by Leo Gura

[Kairos]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Tesla was not an extrovert.

Look Im done arguing with y'all just go check Cognitive functions please .

He wasn't traditional extrovert but his first function is Ne which is so clear because he was all about ABSTRACT ideas.

Ne doesn't have much to do with being social .Being social is related to Fe , Te and bit Se

 

Edited 21 minutes ago by Kairos

[Leo Gura]

You guys are confusing things.

There is extroversion and introversion which drives how one relates to other people.

Then there those specific Jungian functions such as Introverted Feeling or Extroverted Intuition. Those are not what I am talking about. I am talking about how the introverted mind or extroverted mind responds to being highly social. The introverted mind gets exhausted from socializing, finding it stressful and shallow. The extroverted mind thrives on socializing and charged itself up like an energy vampire from being around other humans.

You can measure a mind purely on introversion/extroversion scale, without any appeal to intuition, sensing, feeling, thinking, judging, perceiving. Just pure introversion. That's what I am talking about.

A guy who sits at home for a month and is happy not talking to anyone is a pure introvert.

A pure extrovert is a social butterfly who cannot shut up and cannot be alone.

I am a pure introvert. And I know people who are pure extroverts. And then most people are somewhere in between.

Edited 11 minutes ago by Leo Gura

[RendHeaven]

13 minutes ago, Kairos said:

No he isn't look again you're typing him by mainstream means .E vs I , J vs P 

Thats not how it works you gotta type by functions . 

INTJs in general are like NEWTON who care a lot about their reputation and taking credit  because they are Te-Fi users .

Which wasn't the case with Tesla .

You can make a case for him being  INTP but not INTJ

I'm just going with the overwhelming consensus because there's no way for me to know.

Which is why I said I'm "pretty sure" he's INTJ.

Whereas you seem absolutely convinced that he's ENTP, which is a losing position because you're really just speculating.

[RendHeaven]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, it depends on how generally we are speaking.

You are correct that the other functions are complicating variables which could even cause inversions.

My point was that the more extroverted one tends to be, the more social one tends to be. But also the shallower one's mind tends to be the more enjoyment one will get out of socializing, so the more social one will be. This shallowness of mind is not necessarily all coming from Jungian factors. In general, deep minds are rare, shallow minds are much more common -- regardless of types.

There's a lot complex factors at play here if we want to get very detailed about it.

Gotcha

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Keep in mind that there are many degrees of depth of mind. I am talking about depths of mind which most introverts don't even have.

Thank you for leading us there

[Kairos]

8 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Whereas you seem absolutely convinced that he's ENTP, which is a losing position because you're really just speculating.

Go check differences between Ne vs Ni and then tell me who's right .

 

Edited 8 minutes ago by Kairos

[Kairos]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Then there those specific Jungian functions just a Introverted Feel or Extroverted Intuition. Those are not what I am talking about.

You are contradicting yourself previously you said this 👇

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No, I am 100% talking about Jungian cognitive functions.

Whether you are surrounded by people is irrelevant to me. What matters is the core of how your mind works.

 

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Kairos said:

You are contradicting yourself previously you said this

I am not.

You can use the Jungian introvert/extrovert distinction in various ways. I'm using it stand-alone. You're using it by combining with other distinctions and functions.

Introversion/Extroversion by itself is not the same thing as that matrix of functions you are using.

Edited just now by Leo Gura