Leo's Hot Take on Socializing: Missing the Point Entirely

[Lila9]

Socializing may be a form of suffering for some people and can severely affect their mental state. I am one of those people, and I believe what Leo says about his personal experience because I have the same experience.

I do seek connections, deep connections, and sometimes I get tiny crumbs of it when I socialize, but it is not enough for me. It is never enough because most social interactions don’t prioritize true connection, instead, they often revolve around satisfying needs like seeking validation or approval, share shallow information, kill the time, entertain etc. Rarely is it about genuine connection and intimacy.

I deeply value human connection and intimacy and genuinely want to be seen and to see the other.
However, it is very rare to form such deep connections with people nowadays because of the very structure of our capitalist and patriarchal society, which values individuality, being busy, and achievement over connection and intimacy.

Spirituality makes me feel connected, meditation and my dreams also give me a sense of connection, nature, art and reading as well. Meaningful and deep conversations with people make me feel connected too, especially when they are vulnerable and authentic (though it’s rare because it requires intention and courage as many people, like myself, suffer from fear of intimacy and vulnerability and find it difficult to be authentic).

But merely socializing with people who talk for the sake of talking, and entertainment for the sake of it makes me feel alienated and miserable.

 

[integral]

https://www.actualized.org/insights/understanding-solitude Blog

[UnbornTao]

It might not be a coincidence that philosophers, monks, and similar tend to be solitary types, even if they do end up socializing -- sometimes quite a lot. When all is said and done, insights need to be generated by you, in your experience. The social domain, I'd argue, is exclusively survival-oriented, with "truth" and "wisdom" being incredibly low priorities -- if they are considered at all. This isn't to say that an individual can be entirely detached from the social realm, regardless of her or his environment. Even solitude is a function of "social." Also, solitude is often sought as a way to cut out the distractions of one's culture.

As an example, when one of Kant's students posed a question he couldn't answer, he chose to isolate himself for seven years to contemplate the matter. Why isolating oneself?

I'd add that everyone feels alone, even when surrounded with people and distracted, but this may be beside the point.

Edited Sunday at 12:05 PM by UnbornTao

[integral]

 

Edited Saturday at 12:20 AM by integral

[Emerald]

@Leo Gura Serendipitously enough, I just watched Teal Swan's most recent video. And she's sharing a lot of the same perspectives that I was discussing with you earlier. So, I decided to share the video.

Here's the link...

 

[gambler]

8 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

As an example, when one of Kant's students posed a question he couldn't answer, he chose to isolate himself for seven years to contemplate the matter. 

Do you know what the question posed was?

[Spiral Wizard]

There are stages to this and the journey goes full circle or keeps spiraling into higher and higher levels of transcendence and integration. Monks & teenagers as @Leo Gura described them may be at a certain stage but it continues so don't get stuck and put one state of being onto a pedestal. 

My theory (informed by my experience and the experience of the most awakened guys I know) is this: 

Freedom is the movement of transcendence (up & out) & Love is the movement of descendence  (inward, integrating, inclusive, whole) 

When we have built external abundance—through friendships, meaningful relationships, and fulfilling life experiences—there's a stage at which we start to realize that a deeper form of nourishment does not come from others but from ourselves & Self.

This is where a shift happens: instead of looking outward for love, wisdom, validation, or support, we turn inward. We learn to fully meet our own needs, nurture ourselves with love and wisdom, and connect to the source of all abundance—our own being. This source is deeper than the heart, deeper than the soul—it is the source of our existence.

At this stage, reliance on external validation or social stimulation diminishes. Relying on your Self becomes the purest form of freedom.

People often misunderstand this as withdrawal or detachment from life. But it's not about rejecting the world—it's about no longer needing it in the same way. When you love being alone, you love yourself.

And this is when the turning point where the purpose of True Freedom gets revealed. 

It's not a functional purpose but a transcendent and immanent purpose. When we have totally freed outselves, from all aversion & resistance to ANYTHING, even drama, pain, and people. We are FULLY FREE TO LOVE. 

My definition of Love is making the Ultimate Sacrifice of 'giving up' your transcendent freedom and VOLENTARILY descending back, turning back, to face the Pain of the world. That embrace is real compassion. It's becoming a channel for the highest light to descend back to the world. Unifying Heaven & Earth. 

The journey is not about retreating into solitude forever. It may be the midpoint of the journey. But it goes full circle. 

This is where true service and contribution really come into play because for the first time we are truly free to serve completely volentarily. Having freed yourself from external dependency, you are no longer taking—you are giving. Relationships are no longer based on need but on genuine love and pure generosity. Social interactions are no longer transactional but are instead expressions of your overflowing presence. 

Paradoxically, this is the stage where 'socialization' can become deeply meaningful again. Instead of being an attempt to fill a void, it becomes an opportunity to share wisdom, light, and love without depletion. You interact with others not because you need to but because you choose to.

This is true freedom having gone full circle—not the rejection of socialization, not the clinging to it, but the ability to engage in it from a place of wholeness. It is the freedom to connect without attachment and to be alone without loneliness. 

Engaging fully in life, not out of need but out of pure creative expression.

This is the path beyond both escapism and attachment. This is where life, solitude, and connection all merge into one seamless dance.

Everything gets recontextualized into Pure Divinity.

 

Edited Saturday at 05:35 AM by Spiral Wizard

[Spiral Wizard]

Wisdom lies in recognizing that the highest realization is not about choosing solitude over socialization or vice versa—it is about being free in both. A fully integrated being can sit in deep solitude, blissfully immersed in God, and can also engage in lighthearted conversation without feeling it is "less than." There is no need to diminish either experience.

If socialization feels shallow, it may be because it is being approached with resistance, judgment, or the mind’s desire for something “higher.” But a master can see the divine in every interaction, no matter how simple. The deepest realization does not reject the world; it sees through it and loves it anyway.

Rather than arguing over which perspective is “superior,” the real inquiry is: Are we free? Are we free to be alone without loneliness? Are we free to be with others without resistance? Are we able to see that everything—solitude, socializing, silence, words—can be a doorway to Truth when approached with an open heart?

[Spiral Wizard]

23 hours ago, Emerald said:

And even though my tendency was always to seek divergence from other people, and I had a resistance to sameness and ordinariness... it was only in the embrace of ordinariness that things felt so profound.

And I see in Leo and others on this forum... people who are in the same patterns of polarization into divergence and extraordinariness. And this leads to feeling alone... even when with people. That's what I meant by what I said.

Spot on. But this requires learning to process pain. Unfortunately, the vast majority of even spiritual people will never have the fortune of meeting someone who can guide them toward true pain processing, at the depth required to fully liberate all resistances.

[Adrian colby]

You can transcend and see it all as the one and when you come back you can experience it all because it is one. It doesn’t matter what you choose, the thing is that you have consciously chosen your preferences through which to experience life. Those preferences tie in with what opens your greatest potential ( and yes that means ego, bias, unique frequency, these are a part of you).

when a person doesn’t choose consciously and just acts out of subconscious conditioning, repeating mistakes or falling into disharmonious patterns that conflict with others, it causes chaos individually and collectively. 
 

the difference is that the former knows what he is doing and has the ability to change when it doesn’t work. The later is stuck and blames the external world for their own lack of not knowing themselves. 
 

the later can also blame the former for making conscious choices to live their life experience by, because they are not actually enlightened and don’t recognise enlightenment. 
 

the former can point out all the mechanisms behind how reality relates to reality but it will always be mired by a particular perspective. A perspective that was consciously chosen by looking through multiple perspective to gain a higher vantage point. 
 

the deeper the former goes into the understanding of the infinite possibilities to understand, the further away they grow from others who will no longer be able to relate to them. This does not mean they are wrong, it means they have continued to develop where others have not. 

[JosephKnecht]

10 hours ago, Emerald said:

@Leo Gura Serendipitously enough, I just watched Teal Swan's most recent video. And she's sharing a lot of the same perspectives that I was discussing with you earlier. So, I decided to share the video.

Thanks for sharing her perspective. 

[UnbornTao]

10 hours ago, gambler said:

Do you know what the question posed was?

According to GPT, it was David Hume’s skepticism about causality. Something like: 

How can we justify our belief in necessary causal connections when all we ever perceive are discrete events?

[integral]

@RendHeaven I was inspired by your steelmaning approach.

chathpt

Emerald presents a strong counterargument to Leo’s perspective, but she does not fully steelman it. Instead, she critiques it through the lens of psychological defense mechanisms and human connection needs.

 

Where She Represents Leo Fairly:

• She acknowledges that Leo’s perspective comes from a place of deep contemplation and personal experience.

• She recognizes that solitude can be meaningful and fulfilling.

• She agrees that phases of socialization and solitude can be beneficial.

 

Where She Misrepresents or Fails to Steelman Leo’s View:

1. Framing Social Withdrawal as Avoidance – She suggests that Leo’s perspective might be an unconscious defense mechanism, a way of avoiding social connection rather than a genuine transcendence of it. Leo, however, presents his position as a conscious evolution beyond socialization, not an avoidance of it.

2. Conflating Forum Participation with a Need for Connection – She argues that Leo (and others like him) still seek connection because they engage on forums. However, Leo’s view could be that intellectual discussion is different from typical socialization—it’s about exchanging deep ideas rather than fulfilling a social need. He might see online discussion as an extension of contemplation rather than an admission of social dependence.

3. Implying Superiority-Seeking Behavior – She suggests that intellectual men often isolate themselves due to a desire to feel “more developed†or “superior.†While some people may fall into this trap, Leo’s argument is about meaning, not hierarchy. He claims solitude is more meaningful for him, not that it makes him superior to others.

 

A True Steelman of Leo’s Perspective Would Be:

• Recognizing that socialization and solitude serve different psychological and spiritual needs.

• Accepting that some individuals find deep contemplation inherently more fulfilling than social interaction.

• Acknowledging that solitude, for someone like Leo, is not about avoiding people but about seeking a higher form of meaning.

• Understanding that not everyone needs socialization in the same way, and that transcendence of social needs is at least possible, even if rare.

 

Emerald provides a thoughtful critique, but she views Leo’s position as a form of repression rather than a legitimate alternative way of being. A better counterargument would address his ideas without assuming a hidden psychological motive.

 

[LambdaDelta]

My 2¢ as one of those hermit-like people that resonate with the post:

I had to work very hard for 8 years since age 15 to get over major social anxiety (like being scared of calling the ISP to ask a question bad). This culminated in being able to now talk to absolutely anyone, everything nice and cordial. Basically spiral wizardry. Possibly some genetic component got activated in the process, as my dad made tens of millions brokering deals, one of the best negotiators you could find anywhere, but I digress. 
This was undoubtedly vital, an investment that will pay off for the remainder of my life. But now there's no point in taking it further, only maintenance. The more I develop, the larger the rift between me and others, and it's up to me to bridge that gap, since it's like a one-way street, doesn't work from the other end. That appears effortless in the moment, but it takes its toll later on. 
Occasionally interacting with 'child of man' can be refreshing, fun, and enjoyable, especially after long periods of isolation. But 'fun' and 'enjoyable' are much weaker words than 'bliss', 'Love', 'joy', which I get when being with God. I've had deeper connections to inanimate objects than to people. This is utterly inconceivable to anyone I tell it to, so they attempt to rationalize it somehow by projecting onto me (i.e. I have a fear of connecting with humans, so have to delude myself into making do with 'things'), when in fact it is they who are afraid of letting go of their human identity. So I don't bother anymore, and adapt to whatever they need, playing along in their games. I pretty much only talk to family, acquaintances from class, and random strangers, and it's going great. One with God is the majority. 
Another fat limiting factor is the need for use of language to communicate, this one thing already disables so much potential. Within one's own mind that can be transcended, but with others it's tricky to say the least. For women it might be a bit easier since they're more sensitive to nonverbal cues, I wouldn't know, either way it's only a marginal improvement. 
All that said, I still love human beings, for all their shenanigans and evils. Making and seeing them happy is the bedrock of my life purpose. But it's more of a subtle relationship than something direct. 

The post was very nuanced and covered all the bases, so I'm not sure what people are finding fault with. 

[ryoko]

The more closer you're to life, the more meaningless the outside world and it's drama.

The thought that there's meaning somewhere out there is just your fantasy. Fantasy is the foundation of survival.

[Yimpa]

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Hot Take on Socializing

Ice is stupid. People standing on ice are more stupid. -Paulie