Leo's Hot Take on Socializing: Missing the Point Entirely

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

@Emerald I agree with the majority of your post.

This is the one thing that made me raise an eyebrow

You seem to characterize "the sense of being deeply alone" as something unpleasant.

That may just be your projected bias.

What if Leo or I find genuine joy in this depth of aloneness? Not as a superiority complex, but as a real honoring of one's silent interior?

I think you are quick to assume the worst of reclusive behavior. It doesn't compute for you that there may be genuine joy there, because, as you said, you tried that when you were 20 and it didn't go well.

But at best, that only tells you that extended solitude is not right for you. But maybe it's right for Leo. How would you know?

I just don't buy that Leo or anyone else is so different from any other human being when it comes to basic human needs like connection. So, I see it as far more likely that there's a resistance to connection and a repression of connection drives... rather than a true transcendence of the need for connection.

I feel the same way about Breatharians who claim to not need food because they're 'so spiritually developed'.

What's more likely? That someone transcended the basic human need for food? Or is that someone is secretly eating?

What's more likely? That someone transcended the basic human need for connection? Or is that someone "secretly" spending hours per day socializing on a forum?

In a medicine journey that I did several years ago, the medicine brought me between two states.. back and forth.

And one state, I was polarized into divergence and extraordinariness... and I was like a puzzle piece that had come out from the rest of the puzzle and all the pressure in existence weighed down on my head, neck, and shoulders.

Then, it would reintegrate me with ordinariness... and I felt very connected to humanity, nature, and the universe at large.

And it kept toggling me back between these two points.

And even though my tendency was always to seek divergence from other people, and I had a resistance to sameness and ordinariness... it was only in the embrace of ordinariness that things felt so profound.

And I see in Leo and others on this forum... people who are in the same patterns of polarization into divergence and extraordinariness. And this leads to feeling alone... even when with people. That's what I meant by what I said.

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's quite infuriating that I have to spend so much effort explaining something so basic that you can understand it from reading a few paragraphs of a wikipedia article:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion

Peace out.

Not sure this is directed towards me. But to be clear, I'm quite familiar with Jungian Cognitive Functions.

And Myers-Briggs-wise I'm an INFJ myself... with a strong sway in the direction of introversion. 

I do get a lot from solitary contemplation, and I'm a very internally-oriented person.. always have been.

But I still stand by what I said to you before about considering if your disenchantment with socializing comes more from avoidant tendencies.

[RendHeaven]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Not sure this is directed towards me.

That was directed towards all of us since we're all doggin on him haha

3 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And Myers-Briggs-wise I'm an INFJ myself...

High five me too

[RendHeaven]

17 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I just don't buy that Leo or anyone else is so different from any other human being when it comes to basic human needs like connection. So, I see it as far more likely that there's a resistance to connection and a repression of connection drives... rather than a true transcendence of the need for connection.

I don't think the claim is that human connection has been or should be wholly transcended.

The frame is more like: "This solitude stuff seems to have disproportionate rewards that nobody is talking about!"

It's just a shift in emphasis. And the reason it sounds like he's shitting on socialization is because:

1. he is reporting the results of his personal experience - that being alone is more rewarding than being with people
2. he is verbally overcorrecting for a society which is enormously skewed towards socialization

22 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I feel the same way about Breatharians who claim to not need food because they're 'so spiritually developed'.

lol

22 minutes ago, Emerald said:

What's more likely? That someone transcended the basic human need for food? Or is that someone is secretly eating?

It's not a secret that he's eating. He's just saying that eating is #100 on his list of priorities, whereas his younger self (and the rest of society) is pushing for eating at #1.

23 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Or is that someone "secretly" spending hours per day socializing on a forum?

The forum clearly addresses some of his core needs as a human, but this doesn't contradict anything he said in his blogpost. If we give him the benefit of the doubt, he spends more time "locked in his closet" than typing on his keyboard. So there is no hypocrisy.

31 minutes ago, Emerald said:

In a medicine journey that I did several years ago, the medicine brought me between two states.. back and forth.

And one state, I was polarized into divergence and extraordinariness... and I was like a puzzle piece that had come out from the rest of the puzzle and all the pressure in existence weighed down on my head, neck, and shoulders.

Then, it would reintegrate me with ordinariness... and I felt very connected to humanity, nature, and the universe at large.

And it kept toggling me back between these two points.

And even though my tendency was always to seek divergence from other people, and I had a resistance to sameness and ordinariness... it was only in the embrace of ordinariness that things felt so profound.

I remember this one. I'm glad you shared with us.

32 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And I see in Leo and others on this forum... people who are in the same patterns of polarization into divergence and extraordinariness. And this leads to feeling alone... even when with people. That's what I meant by what I said.

You're right. This polarization will lead to feeling alone.

But again, feeling alone is not a problem unless you insist that it is.

You've written twice now that Leo's recommendations will lead to "feeling alone" as if that's somehow a curse and a bad omen.

Aloneness can be a beautiful thing. A breathtaking thing. A triumph and a celebration. Please consider this.

No, I am not talking about "transcending the need for people." That would be dumb. I'm not talking about eternal isolation. That would be dumb. I'm talking about socializing whenever you have the need, and then naturally and authentically returning to your closet (lol) when you are genuinely called to be alone. Certain personalities will find disproportionate joy in their inward sanctuary, and Leo's blog post is about highlighting that possibility.

Because nobody else in society will ever encourage this.

 

[ryoko]

16 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

"transcending the need for people."

Don't be ridiculous, transcending the need for people, is one of the basic steps, towards Sovereignty of Mind.

If you ask such a person, "if the whole world ended right now, keeping you and you alone alive, would you be happy?" Yes would be the answer. Because happiness was never tied to others. It changes nothing, he was happy before when people were doing their own thing, he's the same now with all people literally gone.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by ryoko

[Girzo]

Guys, but you are aware that all of the Jung theory is fairy tales, yes?

I mean, you can have such hobby, but it’s neither science nor the only accurate way of making distinctions and understanding the human psyche.

[ryoko]

Being NOT social doesn't mean one has to hate people. Its not black and white.

You're all making it hard for Leo to speak his mind. A mind which loves socialization is shallow by default. That is the definition of a group. That's the whole point of a group, you don't have to do all the heavy lifting. You can relax.

The latter is not "anti-social", the latter doesn't care about socializing, he doesn't avoid people either. Having people around makes no difference to him. And he does go through a phase where he avoids people, as in anti social. And that's a good thing, an essential step.

Human mind has so much flexibility, don't underestimate it.

If you are a social being, anything else is "the other". You don't care about it. So it's easy to just put labels on it and be done with it.

Edited 6 hours ago by ryoko

[TheEnigma]

But Leo didn't you say in one of your videos that if you are so introverted, you actually become extroverted. And when you are so extroverted, you end up also becoming so introverted. Can you please explain what you meant by that?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

if your disenchantment with socializing comes more from avoidant tendencies.

Introversion is the avoidance of socialization because it is found vapid and unsatisfying relative to the effort and hassle required.

Women find humans beings more interesting than men do, because their survival requires that. Men are not so interested in humans but more interested in things. So that is also an overlooked factor.

Edited 6 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, TheEnigma said:

But Leo didn't you say in one of your videos that if you are so introverted, you actually become extroverted. And when you are so extroverted, you end up also becoming so introverted. Can you please explain what you meant by that?

1) I don't recall exactly the context of that.

2) That is an old video and my understanding of introversion/extroversion has evolved a lot.

[Girzo]

@Leo Gura The Theme of Things Going Full-circle

Quote

Introversion versus extraversion. This is an interesting one people tend to think these are opposite and that they don't connect, but actually what's possible is that you become so introverted that it circles back around and actually you become completely extroverted. How does that work? Well, you contemplate and you self reflect so much that you actually become conscious that there is no mind or no interiority at all to human beings.

See as an introvert you think you're stuck in your head all the time. You think you're self-conscious, you think you're stuck in the mind, whereas for extroverts they're out there. They're in the physical tangible world, but there actually is no interiority to the mind. The thoughts and emotions that you're having, they're part of the external world so when you realize that when you realize that there's nothing on the inside, it's all outside, then you actually become literally an extrovert, because you live completely out here. Your thoughts, if you have them, your emotions that you have them, you don't consider them interior things, you're not hiding inside of them back there somewhere in your skull. They're actually, they're out here, they're part of the physical world. You see, but all these dualities of inner world outer world physical world non-physical, all these we will dissolve and what you're left with is just one thing.

And you might say, 'well that changes nothing' then, but actually changes everything because for an introvert they're stuck in their head and they actually believe that's real, they think that a whole world is real and it's not and I'm speaking as an introvert.

I'm a very strong introvert, but I realized that it's possible to actually go past this inflection point to extraversion and that's also actually the ultimate solution for introverts is to  go all the way around. Of course, you can also try to go this way as well you can push yourself to become more an extra virtuous by pushing yourself to talk to more people and I've done that too and that's a that's a great strategy.

 

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, ryoko said:

If you ask such a person, "if the whole world ended right now, keeping you and you alone alive, would you be happy?" Yes would be the answer. Because happiness was never tied to others. It changes nothing, he was happy before when people were doing their own thing, he's the same now with all people literally gone.

@ryoko Don't put words in his mouth. Leo has explicitly said very recently that he no longer teaches unconditional happiness because it is a fantasy.

If everyone else died other than Leo, he would probably be pretty bummed.

The idea that he would run around with an unflinching smile is a cartoon in your mind.

[TheEnigma]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

1) I don't recall exactly the context of that.

2) That is an old video and my understanding of introversion/extroversion has evolved a lot.

This video is one of your gems. So it was at 27:11 you said that. It actually took me a few years of experiencing and thinking, to really feel what you were saying. I am an extrovert, but then I realized when I connected with so many people, I really didn't connect with anyone and still had to face a lot of my challenges alone. But then an introvert can also go out and socialize, and seem very extroverted too. But also still feel they have to face their challenges alone. I spoke with my brother about this and he is an comp sci AI vision nerd, extremely introverted. And he once mentioned "Because I think in the end of the day extrovert or introvert, we all want the same things. But never cut at introvert off when they are speaking, because they already don't want to talk, so you will discourage them when you cut them off. With an extrovert, an introvert almost has to learn to cut them off. But when talking to an introvert, expect them to think, because they all also expect you to think. It's like playing chess in classical time control. Talking to an extrovert is like playing bullet. it's a different style. Think of an introvert as a foam that is pressed inwards when interacting, the foam will eventually come back up when they recharge alone. Where as for an extrovert, the foam is already pushed outward, so when they interact, they get pushed down too, but it's already facing outwards."

Edited 5 hours ago by TheEnigma

[ryoko]

27 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

The idea that he would run around with an unflinching smile is a cartoon in your mind.

hahaha

[ryoko]

I wasn't talking about Leo, not by any means.

I'm trying to get you all to appreciate all the forms human mind can take on. Everything is a possibility.

[The Renaissance Man]

@Leo Gura You still haven't answered @Emerald's observation on why you hang out on the forum. That was a major point of hers.

I actually get what you're saying in the blog post. Conceptually, but I get it. And I also get how you wanted to protect introverts from feeling guilty from having to socialize even if they're not cut for what society considers "normal".

But there's a massive difference between totally being alone and a tiny bit of connection. Even if the scale goes from 0 to 100, the difference between 0 socialization and 1 socialization is massive. Think about it, even the man making the video you shared is making videos on YouTube!

Maybe the "sharing wisdom" connection is deeper than normal socialization, and that's why he posts on YT and you post on the blog & forum. But it still fulfills the basic need of connection Emerald talks about.

Am I onto something? If you stopped posting on the forum, not making videos, not posting on the blog, would you start feeling a crippling loneliness eventually?

Edited 4 hours ago by The Renaissance Man

[RightHand]

Fantastic exchange guys. My mind is beyond confused right now  ()

[RendHeaven]

2 hours ago, The Renaissance Man said:

Am I onto something? If you stopped posting on the forum, not making videos, not posting on the blog, would you start feeling a crippling loneliness eventually?

The One Alone Consciousness is playing a game with itself here, where it uses other people and this forum to distract from the consequences of its own Oneness.

A person's tolerance for loneliness basically comes down to the extent to which Consciousness is willing to end distractions and face the consequences of its own Oneness.

If you go all the way into aloneness, it will feel like death, because it's literally death on all levels - physical, psychological, spiritual, conceptual, etc.

Without others, you would literally fucking die (by which I mean awaken, but that's not something to take lightly).

There is deep survival intelligence behind our social imperative instinct.

[integral]

@Emerald I don’t think Leo denies a need for human connection, his blog post does not suggest that.

A need for human connection when all socializing is shallow is part of the twisted nature of a life.

Socializing online like the forum is more like a chess puzzle where you have to find the best solution and not about the connection. And chess puzzles are super addictive.

He may be socializing, but it doesn’t mean he’s socializing 😌. There are also many other incentives for him to be here.

Edited 1 hour ago by integral