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Leo's Hot Take on Socializing: Missing the Point Entirely

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@Leo Gura please read the chatgpt link : ) especially the list at the end.

An ENTP has more mental autonomy than an ISFJ

i'm literally steelmanning you

Edited by RendHeaven

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  On 1/31/2025 at 4:50 AM, RendHeaven said:

An ENTP has more mental autonomy than an ISFJ

And?


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  On 1/31/2025 at 5:15 AM, Leo Gura said:

And?

My point:

It's not as clear cut as saying that "Extroverts literally have shallower minds" when "100% talking about Jungian cognitive functions."

(Verbatim your words.)

Because after rigorous digging, the ENTP (extrovert-dominant) mind is on average more resilient against group-think than the ISFJ (introvert-dominant) mind. Yes, this is the one exception which in some sense "proves" the rule. Your claim holds water with regards to the other function stacks.

I'm just encouraging more accurate speech.


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  On 1/31/2025 at 5:29 AM, Kairos said:

Example . Nikola Tesla ENTP (Ne -Ti-Fe-Si)

I appreciate the support but I"m pretty sure tesla is INTJ lol. So this particular example works against you.

I think Leo is mostly correct - just overlooking certain nuances and speaking too plainly.


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  On 1/31/2025 at 5:28 AM, RendHeaven said:

My point:

It's not as clear cut as saying that "Extroverts literally have shallower minds" when "100% talking about Jungian cognitive functions."

Well, it depends on how generally we are speaking.

You are correct that the other functions are complicating variables which could even cause inversions.

My point was that the more extroverted one tends to be, the more social one tends to be. But also the shallower one's mind tends to be the more enjoyment one will get out of socializing, so the more social one will be. This shallowness of mind is not necessarily all coming from Jungian factors. In general, deep minds are rare, shallow minds are much more common -- regardless of types.

There's a lot complex factors at play here if we want to get very detailed about it.

Keep in mind that there are many degrees of depth of mind. I am talking about depths of mind which most introverts don't even have.

Even though I make use of Jungian factors, I don't limit my understanding of minds to that system.

  On 1/31/2025 at 5:30 AM, Kairos said:

And there are introverts that are highly social like Jordan Peterson INTP , Drake INFP

Sure. In practice survival forces people to be social whether they want it or not.

It's quite rare to have a career that allows you to be deeply unsocial. Such people exist but we don't even know about them because they are not in the public eye.

People like JP and Drake are highly addicted to their careers, which leads down a certain road and demands lots of socialization. You are literally citing celebrities. Celebrities are by definition hyper social.

  On 1/31/2025 at 5:29 AM, Kairos said:

Example . Nikola Tesla ENTP (Ne -Ti-Fe-Si)

Tesla was not an extrovert.

Edited by Leo Gura

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You guys are confusing things.

There is extroversion and introversion which drives how one relates to other people.

Then there those specific Jungian functions such as Introverted Feeling or Extroverted Intuition. Those are not what I am talking about. I am talking about how the introverted mind or extroverted mind responds to being highly social. The introverted mind gets exhausted from socializing, finding it stressful and shallow. The extroverted mind thrives on socializing and charged itself up like an energy vampire from being around other humans.

You can measure a mind purely on introversion/extroversion scale, without any appeal to intuition, sensing, feeling, thinking, judging, perceiving. Just pure introversion. That's what I am talking about.

A guy who sits at home for a month and is happy not talking to anyone is a pure introvert.

A pure extrovert is a social butterfly who cannot shut up and cannot be alone.

I am a pure introvert. And I know people who are pure extroverts. And then most people are somewhere in between.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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  On 1/31/2025 at 5:38 AM, Kairos said:

No he isn't look again you're typing him by mainstream means .E vs I , J vs P 

Thats not how it works you gotta type by functions . 

INTJs in general are like NEWTON who care a lot about their reputation and taking credit  because they are Te-Fi users .

Which wasn't the case with Tesla .

You can make a case for him being  INTP but not INTJ

I'm just going with the overwhelming consensus because there's no way for me to know.

Which is why I said I'm "pretty sure" he's INTJ.

Whereas you seem absolutely convinced that he's ENTP, which is a losing position because you're really just speculating.


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  On 1/31/2025 at 5:43 AM, Leo Gura said:

Well, it depends on how generally we are speaking.

You are correct that the other functions are complicating variables which could even cause inversions.

My point was that the more extroverted one tends to be, the more social one tends to be. But also the shallower one's mind tends to be the more enjoyment one will get out of socializing, so the more social one will be. This shallowness of mind is not necessarily all coming from Jungian factors. In general, deep minds are rare, shallow minds are much more common -- regardless of types.

There's a lot complex factors at play here if we want to get very detailed about it.

Gotcha

  On 1/31/2025 at 5:43 AM, Leo Gura said:

Keep in mind that there are many degrees of depth of mind. I am talking about depths of mind which most introverts don't even have.

Thank you for leading us there


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  On 1/31/2025 at 6:01 AM, Kairos said:

You are contradicting yourself previously you said this

I am not.

You can use the Jungian introvert/extrovert distinction in various ways. I'm using it stand-alone. You're using it by combining with other distinctions and functions.

Introversion/Extroversion by itself is not the same thing as that matrix of functions you are using.

I can know if a human is an introvert or extrovert without knowing anything about their other functions.

It's easy to tell a pure extrovert when you meet one. Easy. Whether they have introvert feeling or extroverted thinking is irrelevant in this case.

When you speak of extroverted intuition or introverted thinking you are using intersections of multiple distinctions. Which gets very complicated. But before you get into that complexity you first need to understand the base distinctions without intersecting them.

Edited by Leo Gura

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  On 1/31/2025 at 6:15 AM, Kairos said:

I'm doing it properly because I studied this for years .

You are doing it mechanically, thinking inside a box you were taught.

I do not think inside your boxes. Which is why I understand things other people cannot imagine.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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  On 1/31/2025 at 5:55 AM, Kairos said:

Go check differences between Ne vs Ni and then tell me who right .

I know my way around the functions. That's not the issue.

The issue is about how well any of us can really know tesla. I don't know much about him, so I don't care about challenging the consensus typing (INTJ)

But for you who seems convinced that he's ENTP, you have to acknowledge that you've never met him, all you have are handed-down stories of his behaviors and feats. You have no immediate window into his mind. It's literally impossible to definitively judge.

There is no right or wrong here, that's the whole point. At best you have more or less accurate guesses. If you were arguing that ENTP is a more likely guess than INTJ, then I would be on board with you, but you're way too definitive in your conclusions. You actually think you're "right."

I just did some more research into this specific tangle. It looks like the nerds are split between ENTP, INTP, and INTJ with no definitive conclusion. IDR labs (which is pretty reputable) has tesla as INTJ to this day, despite its footnote that others argue ENTP. https://www.idrlabs.com/intj.php

So I'm open to your suggestion but I reject the idea that you're "right," whatever that even means. This whole issue is trickier than you make it sound.

I personally don't see ENTP based on the summaries of his behavior (which, again, is all we really have access to). ENTP tends prioritize variety of insight and discussion. Apparently, tesla was hyper-focused on one project at a time and didn't care to convince people of anything.

INTP holds more water if you want to reject INTJ.


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  On 1/31/2025 at 6:18 AM, Kairos said:

@Leo Gura How ? 

What ?


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  On 1/30/2025 at 3:26 AM, Leo Gura said:

I told you it's one perspective.

The shallowness of socializing is a serious issue to consider.

You were given a perspective to consider. With much nuance and qualifications. A perspective which is rarely discussed as people go about wasting years in mindless socialization.

Even though I don't agree with the tone of the OP because there's no need to get angry... I do think it's wise to contemplate deeper into whether your viewpoint that 'socializing is shallow' is actually true or just a means of perpetuating self-isolation and Avoidant Attachment behaviors.

My experience has been that it's the small and simple things that are the most profound. And being able to live my life with other people brings a lot of meaning and joy to my life. I enjoy solitude also... but it's only good as a contrast to the status quo of connection.

When I was 20 and went through a period where I was truly alone in the world, I couldn't actually enjoy my solitude.

But it appears to my perception, that you actually value socializing quite a lot because you spend a great deal of time on this forum. Though you may consciously think differently about why you're engaging on here, which could obscure from your conscious awareness how much you do actually prioritize connection.

Plus, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (which your channel is named for) even states that you must meet your Connection needs to fully focus on Esteem needs and Self-Actualization needs.

But there is a pattern that I notice with a lot of intellectual men who go into this "too deep to socialize" mode. And they end up in the unspoken competition with others to be the "most developed" and feeling intellectually/spiritually elevated over others and isolating themselves. Quite a few guys on this forum fit into that category.

There's this sense of trying to differentiate one's self.

But any type of polarization into extraordinariness, specialness, superiority, divergence to the exclusion of ordinariness will create intense levels of disconnection and isolation... from humanity, nature, and the universe at large.

And it will give the sense of being deeply alone, even when we are with people.

But true connection and intimacy on an ordinary eye-to-eye level is incredibly profound. It's hard to experience it through the insulation of devaluing ordinary humanness.


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  On 1/31/2025 at 6:20 AM, Emerald said:

I couldn't actually enjoy my solitude.

Right. Which is why what I said doesn't make sense to you. That's not an accident.

  Quote

But there is a pattern that I notice with a lot of intellectual men who go into this "too deep to socialize" mode. And they end up in the unspoken competition with others to be the "most developed"...

There's this sense of trying to differentiate one's self.

No. That's not what I'm talking about.

I've done a lot of socialization. And what I eventually realized is that none of it truly satisfies me. Even when I go really deep with someone, it's still too shallow.

What I'm talking about is a mind that is not satisfied by socializing because it is fundamentally too shallow no matter how good you do it.

Understanding such a mind will be challenging for most humans because they don't have it. Which is the whole point of why I made my blog post. The blog post is actually very profound. The profundity of it might take someone two decades to appreciate. Maybe never if you don't have the right kind of mind.

Depth of mind cannot be about competition, because competition is shallow. There is no satisfaction in beating another human. This satisfaction is for shallow minds.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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  On 1/31/2025 at 6:22 AM, Kairos said:

There was no need to bring cognitive functions when you don't how it works .

I know how it works. I just don't need to use them in that way for this matter.

Jung describes what introversion and extroversion are. Purely. Unmixed with other functions. Just because you can mix them up doesn't mean you should for the purpose of this topic.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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@Emerald I agree with the majority of your post.

  On 1/31/2025 at 6:20 AM, Emerald said:

And it will give the sense of being deeply alone, even when we are with people.

This is the one thing that made me raise an eyebrow

You seem to characterize "the sense of being deeply alone" as something unpleasant.

That may just be your projected bias.

What if Leo or I find genuine joy in this depth of aloneness? Not as a superiority complex, but as a real honoring of one's silent interior?

I think you are quick to assume the worst of reclusive behavior. It doesn't compute for you that there may be genuine joy there, because, as you said, you tried that when you were 20 and it didn't go well.

But at best, that only tells you that extended solitude is not right for you. But maybe it's right for Leo. How would you know?


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  On 1/31/2025 at 6:26 AM, Leo Gura said:

Right. Which is why what I said doesn't make sense to you. That's not an accident.

No. That's not what I'm talking about.

I've done a lot of socialization. And what I eventually realized is that none of it truly satisfies me.

What I'm talking about is a mind that is not satisfied by socializing because it is fundamentally too shallow.

Understanding such a mind will be challenging for most humans because they don't have it. Which is the whole point of why I made my blog post. The blog post is actually very profound. The profundity of it might take someone two decades to realize.

You'd be wise to consider what I said.

Certainly, there are monks. There are people who specifically choose that game.

But it doesn't appear to my perception that you are choosing that game. It's a very unpopular game... and for good reason.

You seem to spend a lot of time socializing. Just be honest with yourself.


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  On 1/31/2025 at 6:47 AM, Leo Gura said:

It's quite infuriating that I have to spend so much effort explaining something so basic that you can understand it from reading a few paragraphs of a wikipedia article:

This is an arena of nerds, what did you expect ;)


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  On 1/31/2025 at 6:29 AM, RendHeaven said:

@Emerald I agree with the majority of your post.

This is the one thing that made me raise an eyebrow

You seem to characterize "the sense of being deeply alone" as something unpleasant.

That may just be your projected bias.

What if Leo or I find genuine joy in this depth of aloneness? Not as a superiority complex, but as a real honoring of one's silent interior?

I think you are quick to assume the worst of reclusive behavior. It doesn't compute for you that there may be genuine joy there, because, as you said, you tried that when you were 20 and it didn't go well.

But at best, that only tells you that extended solitude is not right for you. But maybe it's right for Leo. How would you know?

I just don't buy that Leo or anyone else is so different from any other human being when it comes to basic human needs like connection. So, I see it as far more likely that there's a resistance to connection and a repression of connection drives... rather than a true transcendence of the need for connection.

I feel the same way about Breatharians who claim to not need food because they're 'so spiritually developed'.

What's more likely? That someone transcended the basic human need for food? Or is that someone is secretly eating?

What's more likely? That someone transcended the basic human need for connection? Or is that someone "secretly" spending hours per day socializing on a forum?

In a medicine journey that I did several years ago, the medicine brought me between two states.. back and forth.

And one state, I was polarized into divergence and extraordinariness... and I was like a puzzle piece that had come out from the rest of the puzzle and all the pressure in existence weighed down on my head, neck, and shoulders.

Then, it would reintegrate me with ordinariness... and I felt very connected to humanity, nature, and the universe at large.

And it kept toggling me back between these two points.

And even though my tendency was always to seek divergence from other people, and I had a resistance to sameness and ordinariness... it was only in the embrace of ordinariness that things felt so profound.

And I see in Leo and others on this forum... people who are in the same patterns of polarization into divergence and extraordinariness. And this leads to feeling alone... even when with people. That's what I meant by what I said.


Are you struggling with self-sabotage and CONSTANTLY standing in the way of your own success? 

If so, and if you're looking for an experienced coach to help you discover and resolve the root of the issue, you can click this link to schedule a free discovery call with me to see if my program is a good fit for you.

 

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